Pathfinder
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Northeast Ontario
yes maybe even neck sized only. Look back in old threads, it had happened to Dogleg.
M 14 blow's-up
- Thread starter deagle2008
- Start date
yes maybe even neck sized only. Look back in old threads, it had happened to Dogleg.
keep guessing- i've HAD IT HAPPEN- HEAD SEPARATION- brass has been reloaded too many times- it's NOT an out of battery, or any other guess- the gas splits the stock and screws up your mag to boot-
and it's not a wrong powder b/c i use NOTHING BUT WW748 and you can't double charge that in a 308 case
and it's not a wrong powder b/c i use NOTHING BUT WW748 and you can't double charge that in a 308 case
Sluggo_m14
CGN Regular
- Location
- State of Disbelief
4 reloads max?
that's the name of that tune- the seperation i had was from a winchester western ( which i don't even shoot- all mine are r-p) that crawled into my reloading set-up from somewhere- ie RANGE BRASS;and don't forget to count the FIRST FIRING- ie four from VIRGIN
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
Yes. Its not really a malfunction though, a floating firing pin continues to move forward when the bolt's forward movement, under power of the mainspring, suddenly stops. This is usually enough to leave an indentation on the primer, and if the primer has a thin cup the round can fire. I also suspect that if for some reason the top round in the magazine was chambered and extracted a number of times without firing, the sensitivity of the primer would increase with the cumulative effect of several firing pin strikes; not that I'm suggesting that was the case in this example.
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Everybody seems so hot and horny over 'out of battery discharges' these days.
Most 'OOBD' incidents are in reality case head separations.
Case head separations can scrap your gun. They can injure you as well. Load safe and inspect your cases carefully.
Most 'OOBD' incidents are in reality case head separations.
Case head separations can scrap your gun. They can injure you as well. Load safe and inspect your cases carefully.
BattleRife
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- of No Fixed Address
I have had dozens of case head separations, every one of them harmless. It would take a lot of convincing to make me believe a case head separation could do that. As such I use brass a lot more than four times in my M14.
Just to clarify, you are referring to having the case head separations in your M14?
The reason I ask is that case head separations in (for example) bolt guns, tends to be much less exciting as case head separations in gas-operated guns.
If one tends to load on the lower limits, they also are usually not as exciting. If one loads on the hot side or on the way too hot side, things get 'fun' in a hurry.
Pressure does not always rise in a linear manner with gunpowder.
I believe, based on the pictures and my knowledge of the M14, the damage was not a slam fire, rather it was an out of battery.
The OP noted that the rounds were fed into the rifle, rather than from the magazine. Depending on conditions, if the OP does not allow that bolt to slam shut, rather, he babies it closed...the hammer will release and strike the firing pin when the trigger is pulled.
At that moment, there would be insufficient backstopping for the bolt lugs on the receiver and it would violently be forced open and gas would expel violently at the first three opportunities:
1) the movement of the bullet,
2) the primer and then the bolt, and
3) when the extractor sheared the rim, the first rupture of the casing on the bottom (under the extractor). The damaged casing tells us the story, as you can see where the casing material opens outward just below the extractor. The resulting damage is staggering.
It would be nice to see pictures of the bolt and receiver lugs. My guess would be that they would be awfully shiny from the damage of the bolt releasing.
He is very lucky because that hole could have opened up above the extractor. I do not wish to think of the potential for personal injury that instance would have resulted in.
The OP noted that the rounds were fed into the rifle, rather than from the magazine. Depending on conditions, if the OP does not allow that bolt to slam shut, rather, he babies it closed...the hammer will release and strike the firing pin when the trigger is pulled.
At that moment, there would be insufficient backstopping for the bolt lugs on the receiver and it would violently be forced open and gas would expel violently at the first three opportunities:
1) the movement of the bullet,
2) the primer and then the bolt, and
3) when the extractor sheared the rim, the first rupture of the casing on the bottom (under the extractor). The damaged casing tells us the story, as you can see where the casing material opens outward just below the extractor. The resulting damage is staggering.
It would be nice to see pictures of the bolt and receiver lugs. My guess would be that they would be awfully shiny from the damage of the bolt releasing.
He is very lucky because that hole could have opened up above the extractor. I do not wish to think of the potential for personal injury that instance would have resulted in.
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BattleRife
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- of No Fixed Address
No, the separations I have experienced have predominately been in a Savage 99, with a couple in a Garand.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
Well I looked at the pic of the case again after reading your post, but to me the evidence suggests an unsupported case head and web rather than a case failure. There doesn't appear to be a burn line around the circumference of the case as there is in a case head separation, and the failure seems to be localized to just one side of the case. IMHO, the case would not have blown out at the web (note it blew out at the web and not above it as is normal in a case head separation) had it been in the chamber. Admittedly though I'm a bolt gun guy, and don't have a huge amount of experience with gas guns.
Pathfinder
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Northeast Ontario
That dont' look like no case head separation that Ive ever seen.
With a case failure, it doesn't always fail fully around the circumference. It will usually take the path of least resistance, which is usually where the extractor is.
The other things is, when referencing the 'bulging', you have to remember that while the case is 'fully supported', that's only partially true in a lot of auto loaders.
Manually operated guns will have less of a chamfer or radius leading into the chamber where as auto loaders need more of one to allow for reliable feeding. You actually end up with a section just ahead of the bolt face that, while it's technically part of the chamber, is not actually in contact with the case and not really supported.
I'm sure everyone knows someone with an enfield with excessive headspace, and when the case head separates, nothing much happens. Mainly because the bolt only unlocks when you decide to unlock it.
With gas guns, as soon as you get enough pressure down the gas tube......it's opening, regardless of what else is going on. In a case where you have a failure through the extractor, while it's venting high pressure gas into the receiver, it's still allowing pressure to build up in the barrel which will push the bullet out the end and ultimately allow gas down the port.
I have seen many case failures that look just like the OPs picture. They are almost always from gas-operated or blowback/delayed-blowback guns. Most case head separations I've seen from manually operated guns, the rear of the case usually just pops off when you extract it, but not much else.
Who knows, maybe it did fire OOB, but I'm highly skeptical. Most people use OOBD as a catch all. Usually when OOBDs happen, the guy behind the trigger is hurt and has scars to show from it.
The other things is, when referencing the 'bulging', you have to remember that while the case is 'fully supported', that's only partially true in a lot of auto loaders.
Manually operated guns will have less of a chamfer or radius leading into the chamber where as auto loaders need more of one to allow for reliable feeding. You actually end up with a section just ahead of the bolt face that, while it's technically part of the chamber, is not actually in contact with the case and not really supported.
I'm sure everyone knows someone with an enfield with excessive headspace, and when the case head separates, nothing much happens. Mainly because the bolt only unlocks when you decide to unlock it.
With gas guns, as soon as you get enough pressure down the gas tube......it's opening, regardless of what else is going on. In a case where you have a failure through the extractor, while it's venting high pressure gas into the receiver, it's still allowing pressure to build up in the barrel which will push the bullet out the end and ultimately allow gas down the port.
I have seen many case failures that look just like the OPs picture. They are almost always from gas-operated or blowback/delayed-blowback guns. Most case head separations I've seen from manually operated guns, the rear of the case usually just pops off when you extract it, but not much else.
Who knows, maybe it did fire OOB, but I'm highly skeptical. Most people use OOBD as a catch all. Usually when OOBDs happen, the guy behind the trigger is hurt and has scars to show from it.
Some examples of case head failures that were not OOBDs
http: //www.fototime.com/FCCCA279A35531A/standard.jpg
http ://lonelymachines.org/guns/reloads/case_gouge.jpg
http://th emeaningofpie.smugmug.com/Portraits/Upper/i-W3djSJc/0/XL/Cases-XL.jpg (note the bulge despite the case being 'supported')
htt p://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR5jRBChvpnnbi7BBHQYwMgLND3VNGYAaHJVe7Mc3h7QXCQyFVYTUN4vtuZ7A
http: //www.fototime.com/FCCCA279A35531A/standard.jpg
http ://lonelymachines.org/guns/reloads/case_gouge.jpg
http://th emeaningofpie.smugmug.com/Portraits/Upper/i-W3djSJc/0/XL/Cases-XL.jpg (note the bulge despite the case being 'supported')
htt p://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR5jRBChvpnnbi7BBHQYwMgLND3VNGYAaHJVe7Mc3h7QXCQyFVYTUN4vtuZ7A
