Zulu War Massacre Forensic Documentary

[RRCo.]

But Mike, there were 10,000 targets directly in front and 5,000 on either side. Hard to miss eclipse or not, smoke or not.

The facts as I see them are the Brits were spaced too far apart, their guns fouled and or ejection issues after they got hot and they had 20,000 stoned blood lusted Zulu's bearing down on them at a full run or close to it.
For the record I don't buy into this "warrior code" bullsh1t for one moment (gutting to release the spirit of the enemy) I seem to remember hearing the accounts of genitals being removed and faces stabbed to the point of no recognition....just another way of kindly releasing the poor fellows spirit eh!? I call.

If I'm not mistaken the Zulus carried away a lot of their casualties. As for the "warrior" stuff, Shaka had a simple rule that if you failed, you died. In one case some of his regiments having failed decided they would go and settle somewhere else instead of being slaughtered when they got home. And the atrocities? No worse than raping three year olds or putting burning tires around people's necks as is the fashion in the RSA these days.

Great story Tacfoley; I see no reason not to believe it. Much stranger ones are true. Now, the old gentleman might well have been giving out Waterloo hugs for a good part of his life when the mood took him, but what better way of perpetuating the memory of the battle and all it stood for? Though in truth it might well have been his grandfather that was the sergeant, rather than his father, considering life expectancies in those days.

 

[biggles]

Isandlewana

Several facts not really touched on in the documentary:

-The British camp was set up for twice the number of fighting men present.
-It was not "lagered" in contradiction to standing orders
-The overall commander (Chelmsford) had left the camp at around 3am that morning with the other half of the infantry & marched forward to chase what turned out to be phantom Zulu's
-The men left behind were supposed to be packing up to follow on behind, & ended up trrying to defend too large an area for the number of men left behind
-Pulleine who was left in charge of the camp, was outranked by another Officer (Durnford) who turned up mid morning from Rorke's Drift leading a native Cavalry troop
-Durnford didnt want to stay in the camp & miss the fun, refused the command of the camp, & set off after Chelmsford...but asked Pulleine to back his cavalry up with some foot soldiers if he (Durnford) got into trouble... after some "discussions" Durnford set off & after a few miles ran into the Zulu right horn spilling down from the plateau.
-The British right flank company was pushed forward (up to a mile) to try & support Durnford who was conducting a fighting retreat.
-At a dry waterbed Durnford 's men ran out of ammo (they were not using Martinis) & pulled back (on horse) unfortunately it seems the pull back was not passed on to to the British right flank company who found themselves too far forward with an open right wing. At that point the Zulu centre was stalled & gone to ground
-With an open wing the British were pretty much doomed at that point.
-The British line infantry & their officers formed small groups & fought back to back for several hours (according to Zulu sources)
-Wth the bayonets fixed the Martini outreached the Zulu assegai & the Zulus picked up bodies & threw them on the bayonets to drag them down & also picked up fallen rifles to shoot the knots of British soldiers.
-one Zulu story has a British soldier standing up on a wagon & holding off (with his bayonet) all who tried to get at him. Until several Zulus picked up fallen Martinis & managed to shoot him down.
-The troops who fled down the fugitives trail were not from the line Infantry companies but support troops. The line infantry (24th Foot) all stayed & died fighting in & around the camp over the next several hours.
-Of all the troops who fled & managed to get across the river not a single one wore a red coat. The Zulu chief Cetshawayo had orderded all the red coats to be killed & they were.

At Rorkes drift after the first rush from the West, across open ground was stopped by the Martini firepower, most of the subsequent attacks came out of the brush & scrub (to the north of the Hospital) which extended to within some 40 feet or so of the perimeter. Not a lot of time needed to run across that distance & no time to fire more than one snap shot.
Also at Rorkes Drift the Zulu guns outnumbered the British by some 40:1 & the highest % of British wounds were from the Zulu gunfire. But not many (if any) Martinis as the Zulu Impi at RD had never been into the Isandlewana camp & had missed the fighting there as they had been blocking the road between the 2 sites.
Which was why they went to Rorkes Drift, they had not "washed" their spears
& would have been shamed to not take part in some fighting.

Peter
(in Ontario)

 

[antiqueguy]

Several facts not really touched on in the documentary:

-The British camp was set up for twice the number of fighting men present.
-It was not "lagered" in contradiction to standing orders
-The overall commander (Chelmsford) had left the camp at around 3am that morning with the other half of the infantry & marched forward to chase what turned out to be phantom Zulu's
-The men left behind were supposed to be packing up to follow on behind, & ended up trrying to defend too large an area for the number of men left behind
-Pulleine who was left in charge of the camp, was outranked by another Officer (Durnford) who turned up mid morning from Rorke's Drift leading a native Cavalry troop
-Durnford didnt want to stay in the camp & miss the fun, refused the command of the camp, & set off after Chelmsford...but asked Pulleine to back his cavalry up with some foot soldiers if he (Durnford) got into trouble... after some "discussions" Durnford set off & after a few miles ran into the Zulu right horn spilling down from the plateau.
-The British right flank company was pushed forward (up to a mile) to try & support Durnford who was conducting a fighting retreat.
-At a dry waterbed Durnford 's men ran out of ammo (they were not using Martinis) & pulled back (on horse) unfortunately it seems the pull back was not passed on to to the British right flank company who found themselves too far forward with an open right wing. At that point the Zulu centre was stalled & gone to ground
-With an open wing the British were pretty much doomed at that point.
-The British line infantry & their officers formed small groups & fought back to back for several hours (according to Zulu sources)
-Wth the bayonets fixed the Martini outreached the Zulu assegai & the Zulus picked up bodies & threw them on the bayonets to drag them down & also picked up fallen rifles to shoot the knots of British soldiers.
-one Zulu story has a British soldier standing up on a wagon & holding off (with his bayonet) all who tried to get at him. Until several Zulus picked up fallen Martinis & managed to shoot him down.
-The troops who fled down the fugitives trail were not from the line Infantry companies but support troops. The line infantry (24th Foot) all stayed & died fighting in & around the camp over the next several hours.
-Of all the troops who fled & managed to get across the river not a single one wore a red coat. The Zulu chief Cetshawayo had orderded all the red coats to be killed & they were.

At Rorkes drift after the first rush from the West, across open ground was stopped by the Martini firepower, most of the subsequent attacks came out of the brush & scrub (to the north of the Hospital) which extended to within some 40 feet or so of the perimeter. Not a lot of time needed to run across that distance & no time to fire more than one snap shot.
Also at Rorkes Drift the Zulu guns outnumbered the British by some 40:1 & the highest % of British wounds were from the Zulu gunfire. But not many (if any) Martinis as the Zulu Impi at RD had never been into the Isandlewana camp & had missed the fighting there as they had been blocking the road between the 2 sites.
Which was why they went to Rorkes Drift, they had not "washed" their spears
& would have been shamed to not take part in some fighting.

Peter
(in Ontario)

from what i heard none of the brits where wounded by gunfire. hookie as we have come to know him had reported alot of it. he also said after the battle he was carrying some spears down to the river when a zulu who was playing opossum(not hooks words but thats what he was doing) when he lunged at him with a spear and he fought him off and killed him.

there was also reports that not all of the zulus buried where dead

zulu(1964) really made things alot worse historically

 

[Mike Webb]

But Mike, there were 10,000 targets directly in front and 5,000 on either side. Hard to miss eclipse or not, smoke or not.

The facts as I see them are the Brits were spaced too far apart, their guns fouled and or ejection issues after they got hot and they had 20,000 stoned blood lusted Zulu's bearing down on them at a full run or close to it.
For the record I don't buy into this "warrior code" bullsh1t for one moment (gutting to release the spirit of the enemy) I seem to remember hearing the accounts of genitals being removed and faces stabbed to the point of no recognition....just another way of kindly releasing the poor fellows spirit eh!? I call.

On the contrary, very easy to miss. In this terrain you are not going to see 20,000 men at once or even half that many. Like biggles said the British forces were spread too thin and of the 1800 men present only around 700 were British regulars, the rest were native troops.

 

[antiqueguy]

On the contrary, very easy to miss. In this terrain you are not going to see 20,000 men at once or even half that many. Like biggles said the British forces were spread too thin and of the 1800 men present only around 700 were British regulars, the rest were native troops.

and most native troops had only snider rifles and most of them had the rifling removed

 

[biggles]

From memory Hitch had his shoulder shattered by a musket ball. Most of the Zulu rifles would have been worn out muzzle loaders sold by traders. There is a possiblity that there were a few Martinis seized from the wagon that was being driven by a few of Chard's Engineers from RD to the Isandlewana camp who were caught on the way.

Any of the Zulu walking wounded would have left, some were dragged down to the river on their shields & yes some wounded may have been buried with the dead.

Peter (in Ontario)

from what i heard none of the brits where wounded by gunfire. hookie as we have come to know him had reported alot of it. he also said after the battle he was carrying some spears down to the river when a zulu who was playing opossum(not hooks words but thats what he was doing) when he lunged at him with a spear and he fought him off and killed him.

there was also reports that not all of the zulus buried where dead

zulu(1964) really made things alot worse historically

 

[biggles]

Antiquguy said "zulu(1964) really made things alot worse historically".

Yes in some ways, but it also resurrected memories of what in 1964 was a forgotten battle. My Dad took me to see it when it came out & it had a powerful effect on me. It took me 45 years to finally get & fire a Martini but I now have.

Mike Snook wrote 2 books, "Like Wolves on the Fold" & "How Can Men die Better" which I would recommend to anyone interested in the 2 battles of Rorke's Drift & Isandlewana.

Peter
(in Ontario)

 

[RRCo.]

and most native troops had only snider rifles and most of them had the rifling removed

From what I remember reading, everyone who wanted to make a few extra shillings was bringing in whatever arms they could get and selling them to the Zulus. Some junk, but a lot was not. They had some thousands of perfectly good Martinis IIRC, but of course they didn't come with marksmanship instructors.

The last time this came up, didn't someone tell us that the last British survivor was in cave on the kopje sniping at the Zulus when he was killed?

 

[antiqueguy]

From what I remember reading, everyone who wanted to make a few extra shillings was bringing in whatever arms they could get and selling them to the Zulus. Some junk, but a lot was not. They had some thousands of perfectly good Martinis IIRC, but of course they didn't come with marksmanship instructors.

The last time this came up, didn't someone tell us that the last British survivor was in cave on the kopje sniping at the Zulus when he was killed?

i was not talking about zulus i was talking about native troops on the brits side it was starded practice to give them the older models of firearms the snider was issued to native troops when the martini henry came into play it was even givin to canadian troops the idea was issue the slower and shot out guns to troops who you could not highly trust

i also doubt anyone was trading in martini henry rifles because well there where still issued and not sold/givin to anyone other then military forces of britian

 

[biggles]

last survivor

Yes that is correct. The Zulu's fired into the cave (or hole) until he stopped presumably hit & killed.
I have read that it was some 3-4 hours after main resistance had ceased.

On the other hand among the first to leave must have been Ardendorf since he came back apparently along the track to RD, if so must have been before it was cut.

Peter
(in Ontario)


The last time this came up, didn't someone tell us that the last British survivor was in cave on the kopje sniping at the Zulus when he was killed?[/QUOTE]

 

[cyclone]

Comparing Isandlewana to Hector MacDonald's position during the Battle of Omdurman might prove instructive - the attached Maxim machineguns and artillery really "saved the bacon" of the Sudanese troops who were armed with single-shot Remington rolling-blocks....

 

[Musketfire]

I do Rev war reenactments and this was a beautiful story.
Its good to keep the family heritage and ethos alive, you should have this tale somewhere on a family tree, just in case the "pride" skips a generation so its not lost!

GOD SAVE THE KING!

A couple of things - firstly, a shooting pal of mine is a member of a British Victorian Army re-enactment group. A few years back they went to RSA to carry out a well-publicised 're-run' of the Battle of Rorke's Drift which necessarily insluded many of the actual descendants of the opposition. I'll try and find the article for you - it was featured on TV here in UK and back in the RSA.

Secondly, we have little tradition in our family concerning drummer boys, and although you might laff, it's something we take quite seriously. My maternal grandma was born in 1890 and lived in the East End of London. During Queen Victoria's Diamond Jubilee in 1897, there were massive street celebrations everywhere, including my grandma's street. During a parade, an old man - a neighour from across the street, came up to her, and with the permission of her dad, gave her a whopping great hug, and laughingly told her that it was a 'hug from Waterloo'. My great-grandfather asked which Waterloo he meant, since there was a very large train station over the river by that name, and, of course, the famous battle back in 1815. The old man then explained.

It seems that he had been a 12-year-old drummer boy in an infantry regiment at the battle, and had been told by his sergeant that if he survived the day, that he should carry something of it with him forever, to pass on to somebody else as a memory of the great victory, IF victory there was. During the appalling meleé he was injured and lost consciousness. When he woke up, it was dark and the battle was over and he was in the arms of his sergeant, who had searched the battlefield until he found him, injured, near a wagon. The sergeant had kept him warm and saved him from dying long enough for him to get some kind of basic medical treatment for his many injuries - he had a couple of sabre cuts, one of which had taken his eye, lost three fingers and had a number of metal fragments in his legs, but he survived.

The caring sergeant was his father.

He promised that he would pass on the Waterloo hug to a deserving child, and did so, to my grandma, with the words - 'This hug has come all the way down the years from the battle of Waterloo, and you must pass it on to YOUR children at the right time. You'll know when that must be.'

Seems he died a few weeks later, but his legacy lived on with my grandma, who passed it on to me when I was seven years old, the same as she was when she got it.

Next month, I'll be doing the same thing to my grand-daughter, on her seventh birthday, and hopefully, one day, she will pass it on to her children.

So right now, I have, deep inside me, a hug that was given in love, hope and caring on a terrible day in May 1815, to pass on again.

Mawkish, I agree, and I apologise for the thread drift.

tac

 

[tacfoley]

One of the prevailing myths was that of the Welsh male voice choir [led by Ifor Emmanuel in the movie]. In fact the unit there was made up of mostly Englishmen from that side of the border, but the songs that THEY might have sung were considered a mite too bawdy - even for a 1960s audience - so 'Men of Harlech' was chosen instead of 'Sally, the willing milkmaid'.

tac

 

[plinker 777]

Why is Sally "willing"? Willing to do what?...

 

[Goldenlakepete]

I've often wondered why the British troops at Isandlwana didn't form a "square". Wasn't that the proper thing to do when faced by greater numbers?

 

[antiqueguy]

I've often wondered why the British troops at Isandlwana didn't form a "square". Wasn't that the proper thing to do when faced by greater numbers?

nope only for calvary what hppens with infantry charging into a square especially with greater numbers is one side will brake and then the rest will do the same with calvary you have all sides covered so they cant charge from the rear witch is what calvary is best suited for but with infantry that is trained for hand to hand well it does not work

 

[RRCo.]

i was not talking about zulus i was talking about native troops on the brits side it was starded practice to give them the older models of firearms the snider was issued to native troops when the martini henry came into play it was even givin to canadian troops the idea was issue the slower and shot out guns to troops who you could not highly trust

i also doubt anyone was trading in martini henry rifles because well there where still issued and not sold/givin to anyone other then military forces of britian

Martinis weren't only made in England.

Comparing Isandlewana to Hector MacDonald's position during the Battle of Omdurman might prove instructive - the attached Maxim machineguns and artillery really "saved the bacon" of the Sudanese troops who were armed with single-shot Remington rolling-blocks....

Now there's a name on a can of worms; records to be sealed for a hundred years! Everyone said the Sudanese behaved very well, as did MacDonald. Kitchener however seems to have got in rather a flap, just as he did at Paardeberg. Shown up by a ranker; how humiliating!

nope only for calvary what hppens with infantry charging into a square especially with greater numbers is one side will brake and then the rest will do the same with calvary you have all sides covered so they cant charge from the rear witch is what calvary is best suited for but with infantry that is trained for hand to hand well it does not work

Ｅxcept at the Battle of Minden, when you just halt and give them a volley at 30 yards which blows them flat, then on you go. Now that's (fire) discipline.

 

[Goldenlakepete]

nope only for calvary what hppens with infantry charging into a square especially with greater numbers is one side will brake and then the rest will do the same with calvary you have all sides covered so they cant charge from the rear witch is what calvary is best suited for but with infantry that is trained for hand to hand well it does not work

The British used the "square" against the Zulus at Ulundi (if Wikipedia is to be trusted).

www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/battle_of_Ulundi.

 

[biggles]

square at Ulundi

The british did use the square at Ulundi, with Machine Guns. The British Cavalry were also in the square for pursuit when the Zulu's broke.
Peter

The British used the "square" against the Zulus at Ulundi (if Wikipedia is to be trusted).

www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/battle_of_Ulundi.

 

[biggles]

Omdurman

Cyclone,
I would welcome any recommendation you might care to give of books dealing with Omdurman. Tel El Kebir I have.

Peter
(in Ontario)

Comparing Isandlewana to Hector MacDonald's position during the Battle of Omdurman might prove instructive - the attached Maxim machineguns and artillery really "saved the bacon" of the Sudanese troops who were armed with single-shot Remington rolling-blocks....