.38 long colt

[gastonglock]

There is a revolver for sale on this site... Said revolver has a .38 spl barrel and a .38 long colt cylinder. I think this revolver is in fact a restricted firearm but it is being sold as an antique.

.38 long colt is on "the list", is it not? If a cartridge is on "the list" and the cylinder is an original one, this gun should by law be registered... Should it not?

I understand that putting a .45acp/.455 webley cylinder into a pre-1898 .45 colt will make said gun gain antique status... But just the barrel? What's stoping a guy from only shooting .455webley in a .45 colt and calling it antique?

What am I missing here?

 

[loki_81]

Unless he's the person who modified it he could very well be mistaken. The Colt new Army Navy was manufactured into the 1900's (until 1907 - 1908) and some did come chambered and made for .38spl although some were still marked with "Colt DA .38" so indistinguishable by markings. This could very well be a .38spl cylinder and the seller isn't aware.

To answer your question yes .38 colt is on the list, however lots of these cylinders got reamed straight through to fit the larger .38spl. This could be a modified cylinder, probably is if the seller is claiming that it can handle .38spl.

I would call this a poor description on the behalf of the seller, either that or yes this is indeed still a restricted firearm if the description is accurate.

Heh, I got to play with that gun while they did the gunsmithing, it was in bad shape mechanically and I hope it turned out much better. I believe it came with factory letter to the gunsmith, so it had to go through the de-registration steps to get it, it's most likely known to the CFC.

 

[41 Colt]

The Colt new Army Navy was manufactured into the 1900's (until 1907 - 1908) and some did come chambered and made for .38spl although some were still marked with "Colt DA .38" so indistinguishable by markings.

Correct, a few were marked .38spl but Colt were threatened by S&W and had to stop IIRC.

lots of these cylinders got reamed straight through to fit the larger .38spl.

That's incorrect. The .38 Colt cylinders were reamed staight through, just like the .41 Colt cylinders. The .38spl has the step for the smaller bullet.

I have owned one of these I bought with an original .38 Colt cylinder and aftermarket .38spl barrel. It was restricted when I bought it but I succesfully had it deamed an antique by the CFC techs with the original cylinder. I later replaced the cylinder with a .38spl version and it improved the performance of the round.

I got to play with that gun while they did the gunsmithing, it was in bad shape mechanically

It's missing the safety that won't let you fire it with the cylinder not fully locked in.

I also don't have a problem firing factory .38spl in mine. Colt proofed them for .38spl in 1902 IIRC and the .38spl of many years ago is actually hotter than today, some would compare yester years .38spl to todays +P rounds.

 

[tiriaq]

.....I have owned one of these I bought with an original .38 Colt cylinder and aftermarket .38spl barrel. It was restricted when I bought it but I succesfully had it deamed an antique by the CFC techs with the original cylinder.....

I am impressed. I would never have thought that the RCMP would recognize a change in caliber when the original unaltered cylinder still chambered for the original "list" cartridge is being used.

 

[dingus]

I am impressed. I would never have thought that the RCMP would recognize a change in caliber when the original unaltered cylinder still chambered for the original "list" cartridge is being used.

If his gun still has a orignal 38 LC cylinder in the gun its a restricted firearm end of story if 41 colt got one deregistered with the orignal 38 LC cylinder im surprised as thats going against there own rules on this as 38 lc ammo is factory made without heeled bullets and can be shot in a 38 sp tho alot of people dont know that there sister cartridges.

Thats a very risky thing to do i am thinking the tec misunderstood what 41 colt was doing thinking the gun was a 38 sp.

38 lc chamber is a tad BIGER in Dia , just a few tho bigger than a 38 Sp chamber and its bored thru in the 1892 colts thats why cfc treat the 38 sp as one of the OK calibers as the chambers is what matters.
A 38 Sp Chamber has a chamber throat. the reason the 38 LC chamber is bored thru is the 38 LC orignaly used a biger Dia Heeled bullet but they make 38 Lc with normal bullets to.

Just sticking a 38 sp barrel on a gun with a 38 LC cylinder does not make it a antique.
Sure you can put a 38 Sp ammo in a 38 LC chamber that doesnt make the gun antique tho a 38 Sp has abit of play looseness in that 38 Lc chamber it still fires tho.

Bottom line makeing a gun like this can end up haveing your collection seized.

Starpuss had some of theses guns done right by useing 32 20 cylinders and haveing them reamed to 38 Sp with chamber throats. He also found some propper 38 Sp cylinders from the more modern made 1892s and he had them installed. as far as i know starpusses guns were done right.
That gun in the EE is not one of starpusses guns.

I contacted the seller he thinks that because the gun was orignaly a 41 LC its a Antique i informed him that if its got a 38 LC cylinder in it then its now a restricted firearm.
Just because you get a RCMP letter that dont meen squat they give out them letters based on the info you give them.
Even the deregistrations are done on good faith.
Guys doing the wrong thing will make this alot harder for the rest of us.
Why did starpuss go to all the troble and extra expence of makeing sure the cylinders were 38 sp if he could just use the 38 lc common orignal cylinders.

 

[dingus]

Heres some info off the net on the 38 Sp and 38 long colt.
Only thing is the 38 LC used a heeled bullet orignaly and thats why 38 LC chambers are bored thru and should not chamber in a 38 Sp unless its a moderm made 38 Lc cartridge.
the whole thing is a mess.
.


Except for case length, the .38 Special is identical to that of the .38 Long Colt, and the .357 Magnum. This allows the .38 Special round to be safely fired in revolvers chambered for the .357 Magnum, and the .38 Long Colt to be fired in revolvers chambered for .38 Special, increasing the versatility of this cartridge. However, the longer and more powerful .357 Magnum cartridge will not chamber and fire in weapons rated specifically for 38 Special (e.g. all versions of the Smith & Wesson Model 10), which are not designed for the greatly increased pressure of the magnum rounds.

 

[Mike Webb]

A friend has a 1901 Colt in .38 Long Colt. Can this receive antique status or is the manufacture date past the cutoff point. On his the mouth of the barrel on the cylinder end has several small cracks, I assume from some idiot firing .38 special rounds in it.

 

[41 Colt]

A friend has a 1901 Colt in .38 Long Colt. Can this receive antique status or is the manufacture date past the cutoff point. On his the mouth of the barrel on the cylinder end has several small cracks, I assume from some idiot firing .38 special rounds in it.

Past the cutoff date of Dec 31st 1897. Those cracks are on what's called the forcing cone, most likely caused by the gun being out of time (cylinder not lining up properly) and being fired. These guns can handle .38spl, Colt did the testing themselves in the early 1900s and wouldn't have sold them to the public if it was unsafe.

Thats a very risky thing to do i am thinking the tec misunderstood what 41 colt was doing thinking the gun was a 38 sp.

I explained the cylinder was original, what I made a point of arguing was the fact that the barrel was .38spl and therefore a smaller bore diameter, about 0.020" smaller. I was also asked if the cylinder chambered .38spl. I don't recall any looseness except for the bullet itself when fired due to the lack of throat.

I thought this had come up before with a gun in some .45 type caliber being able to chamber .45 Colt but being designed for something else so it was antique.

 

[dingus]

Past the cutoff date of Dec 31st 1897. Those cracks are on what's called the forcing cone, most likely caused by the gun being out of time (cylinder not lining up properly) and being fired. These guns can handle .38spl, Colt did the testing themselves in the early 1900s and wouldn't have sold them to the public if it was unsafe.



I explained the cylinder was original, what I made a point of arguing was the fact that the barrel was .38spl and therefore a smaller bore diameter, about 0.020" smaller. I was also asked if the cylinder chambered .38spl. I don't recall any looseness except for the bullet itself when fired due to the lack of throat.

I thought this had come up before with a gun in some .45 type caliber being able to chamber .45 Colt but being designed for something else so it was antique.

This last part of your post i will try and answer for you about the 45 cal thing .
some wg armys that are 455/476 will in fact chamber a 45 long colt and the 45 long colt cycles fine and shoots but the gun is still considered a perscribed antique by CFC because the 45 long colt happends to fit but the wg was never chambered in 45 colt so as long as the gun was not altered to chamber 45 colt but 45 colt happen to fit itys still antique.
this is not the same as starting with a No listed caliber cylinder like 38 Lc and finding out 38 sp happens to fit fairly well so you just say its 38 sp.

changeing the barrel in the handgun is not changeing the chambering.
i dont make up theses stupid laws but try and point out when someone has a gun that can cause them a ton of greif.

this is not a good gun to go to court and have a fight about because some tec on the phone told you its ok you think there gona back you up in court i dont think so
the antique letters are made to cover cfcs butt they say based on the info "you " gave them.

 

[tiriaq]

.....I explained the cylinder was original, what I made a point of arguing was the fact that the barrel was .38spl and therefore a smaller bore diameter, about 0.020" smaller. I was also asked if the cylinder chambered .38spl. I don't recall any looseness except for the bullet itself when fired due to the lack of throat.....

.38 Special specs. are .350 bore, .358 groove. If this is .020 smaller than .38 Long Colt, .38LC would be .370 and .378 respectively. Spec. for .38LC bullet is .361. A soft lead .361 bullet isn't going to work at all in a .370/.378 barrel, but would be just fine in a .350/.358.
I am amazed that the RCMP would deem a revolver with an original .38LC cylinder and replacement .38SP barrel to be antique.

 

[dingus]

.38 Special specs. are .350 bore, .358 groove. If this is .020 smaller than .38 Long Colt, .38LC would be .370 and .378 respectively. Spec. for .38LC bullet is .361. A soft lead .361 bullet isn't going to work at all in a .370/.378 barrel, but would be just fine in a .350/.358.
I am amazed that the RCMP would deem a revolver with an original .38LC cylinder and replacement .38SP barrel to be antique.

To top that off 38 LC is available in a non heeled bullets and has been even pre 1898 go look up 38 LC ulta max ammo its just a shorter 38 Sp.

One thing tho i noticed a SAA colt 38 Sp chamber is a few tho smaller in Dia than a 1892 Colt 38 LC chamber so the two are slightly diffrent.
If you wikipeida the 38 long colt and 38 Sp you will see the cases are in fact a few tho diffrent.
That said no way id have a DA 1892 Colt with a orignal 38 LC cylinder in the gun.
Get a tighter 38 Sp one made up for the gun then you got at least a fighting chance

Its easy to see if you have a 38 LC cylinder in your 38 sp 1892 because the 38 LC is bored thru you can load a 38 sp from the front faceing back or the back faceing front in a 38 LC chambered cylinder.

 

[41 Colt]

.38 Special specs. are .350 bore, .358 groove. If this is .020 smaller than .38 Long Colt, .38LC would be .370 and .378 respectively. Spec. for .38LC bullet is .361. A soft lead .361 bullet isn't going to work at all in a .370/.378 barrel, but would be just fine in a .350/.358

Original .38 Colt had a larger bore diameter for the old heeled bullet which would have been the same diameter as the case 0.381", then they switched to a smaller hollow base just like the .41 Colt which has a bullet 0.015"-0.024" smaller than the bore diameter but expands being soft pure lead. That's how a 0.361" bullet would work in a 0.378" bore.

because some tec on the phone told you its ok

I gave them a detailed description and several photos of the gun via email when I had mine deregistered from restricted to antique, two months later received my letter. They were aware of everything and still did it. Their take on it must have been it is no longer designed to fire .38 Colt but now .38spl, even with the original cylinder.

An exact quote from my emails which I still have on file, "Do you know if the cylinder chambers a 38 Special cartridge?" That's all they seemed to care about, not if it was an original .38 Colt cylinder, but if it could chamber the round it had been rebarreled for.

Either way, shortly after I got ahold of a late model gun for parts and took the proper .38spl cylinder from it. The gun fired much better with no leading, and is now 100% legal, not that it bothered me in the first place.

 

[dingus]

Intresting because if thats the way there going to be dealing with antiques that would in fact open the door on other guns that are chambered in 38 LC
Thats a big diffrence not haveing to worry about changeing a cylinder on a 38 LC gun just the barrel.

Im gona check this out either way i want to know because they cant tell some people its OK to do this but then telll others is not ok to do that.
Maby there easeing up on the caliber lists as they are really stupid to begin with.
I cant see how they would alow that and yet say the 38 M&H is a no go caliber the diffrence in that 38 M&H and 38 LC is more so than the 38 Sp 38 LC

 

[41 Colt]

Let us know what you find out Dingus. You're very right they can't tell some people one then then others something else.

 

[Mike Webb]

41 Colt, thanks for the info on the cracks in the forcing cone.