difference in brass manufacturers
- Thread starter DarkSith
- Start date
No idea between those two, but I have seen a fair number of horror stories regarding recent manufacture Winchester brass with problems. No personal experience on that, though. I haven't bought any Winchester brass for a couple of years now.
As for better brass, Lapua is generally considered to be the best around, but they do charge accordingly for it. I have found PRVI brass to be very good as well (for much less than Lapua) and will take it over any north american brand now.
Mark
As for better brass, Lapua is generally considered to be the best around, but they do charge accordingly for it. I have found PRVI brass to be very good as well (for much less than Lapua) and will take it over any north american brand now.
Mark
I've been rolling my own quite some time now but have only recently(past 6 months or so) been using Prvi brass.I'm working my way through 6.5X55,303 British and 7.62X54R.My experience from loading and shooting this brass has been just fine,no complaints.I would certainly recommend it to anyone.
Try Mystic Precision and/or Budget Shooter Supply. No unlicensed export of any reloading components, unfortunately.
Mark
I know the answer:
270 Win might mean 270 Winchester cartridge
30-05 SPRG might mean 30-06 Springfield cartridge (Springfield Armory in the US)
This is the "well-known" brass quality scale:
- Lapua
- Norma - Nosler
- Winchester (harder brass than Norma)
- Remington
- Federal (very soft)
There are always exceptions and I've had great brass from Hornady and Remington but generally Lapua, Norma(Nosler) and Winchester are considered the top brass case.
Alex
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I've never used Lapua or Norma brass. All the brass I use is pretty much range pick up.
My favorite of the big 3 is R-P (Remington). Fed comes in second.
I've made observations, and heard a few stories. I can't say for sure how accurate this is but:
R-P seems to be soft an pliable. It takes conversions to other calibers real well if you're into that sort of thing. Because it's so forgiving it seems to last longer for me then Win and Fed.
Fed brass, I haven't used as much, but gives me good results. It has the least case capacity compared to the other two in 308 win. I can get the performance I want out of my load with just a touch less powder then the other 2. For me, in 308, it seems to wear out faster then the other two, showing early signs of head separation much earlier then the other 2.
Winchester brass is hard a springy. It has the most case capacity in 308, which some hot rodders like cause they can pack more powder into it. For the same reason you could get slightly less consistent powder burn in a mild or reduced load.
Because it's springy, it will almost . . . shrink back to shape after firing.
It can last a lot of reloadings because of this, but at the same time I find that it can have inconsistent neck tension cause once the neck is fire formed loose, then you resize it back down again, it can spring back loose again. If that makes sense to you ?
Last time I used some Win 308 Win brass, I was having trouble seating the bullets firmly, they just kind of dropped down into the brass when seating cause the neck didn't want to grab tight enough. I don't recall having that issue a lot with it, and that particular batch was loaded over 12 times.
My favorite of the big 3 is R-P (Remington). Fed comes in second.
I've made observations, and heard a few stories. I can't say for sure how accurate this is but:
R-P seems to be soft an pliable. It takes conversions to other calibers real well if you're into that sort of thing. Because it's so forgiving it seems to last longer for me then Win and Fed.
Fed brass, I haven't used as much, but gives me good results. It has the least case capacity compared to the other two in 308 win. I can get the performance I want out of my load with just a touch less powder then the other 2. For me, in 308, it seems to wear out faster then the other two, showing early signs of head separation much earlier then the other 2.
Winchester brass is hard a springy. It has the most case capacity in 308, which some hot rodders like cause they can pack more powder into it. For the same reason you could get slightly less consistent powder burn in a mild or reduced load.
Because it's springy, it will almost . . . shrink back to shape after firing.
It can last a lot of reloadings because of this, but at the same time I find that it can have inconsistent neck tension cause once the neck is fire formed loose, then you resize it back down again, it can spring back loose again. If that makes sense to you ?
Last time I used some Win 308 Win brass, I was having trouble seating the bullets firmly, they just kind of dropped down into the brass when seating cause the neck didn't want to grab tight enough. I don't recall having that issue a lot with it, and that particular batch was loaded over 12 times.
"------Because it's springy, it will almost . . . shrink back to shape after firing."
"-------but at the same time I find that it can have inconsistent neck tension cause once the neck is fire formed loose, then you resize it back down again, it can spring back loose again. If that makes sense to you ?"
Sorry, but it does not make sense to me.
I once got a custom made 243 rifle with a high quality barrel. I had a quantity of Winchester brass which I had previously fored in a Ruger. I full length resized them with a RCBS sizing die.
They would not go into the chamber of the new 243. Factory loads chambered perfectly.
The solution was to anneal the old cases, then when sized they went into the chamber perfect, because the brass stayed where the sizer pushed it. This may fiit the description of Winchester brass being springy, but later I had to do the same with other brands of brass.
I have used all of the common brands of brass and, for the ordinary shooter and reloader, I don't think it matters one whit, what brand you use.
I suppose if I were going to enter a world class competition I would get the "best" brass I could buy, whatever that is. Other than the evenness of the thickness of the neck, I would like to know what other qualities brass could have that would deter from the accuracy of the cartridge.
For all other shooting, even for making key board groups, I would just use whatever I had, or could get.
Softer brass just goes longer before it needs annealing, while harder brass may need annealing sooner, but I can't say that any one brand of brass lasts longer, or doesn't last as long, as some other brand, if they are all properly used.
"-------but at the same time I find that it can have inconsistent neck tension cause once the neck is fire formed loose, then you resize it back down again, it can spring back loose again. If that makes sense to you ?"
Sorry, but it does not make sense to me.
I once got a custom made 243 rifle with a high quality barrel. I had a quantity of Winchester brass which I had previously fored in a Ruger. I full length resized them with a RCBS sizing die.
They would not go into the chamber of the new 243. Factory loads chambered perfectly.
The solution was to anneal the old cases, then when sized they went into the chamber perfect, because the brass stayed where the sizer pushed it. This may fiit the description of Winchester brass being springy, but later I had to do the same with other brands of brass.
I have used all of the common brands of brass and, for the ordinary shooter and reloader, I don't think it matters one whit, what brand you use.
I suppose if I were going to enter a world class competition I would get the "best" brass I could buy, whatever that is. Other than the evenness of the thickness of the neck, I would like to know what other qualities brass could have that would deter from the accuracy of the cartridge.
For all other shooting, even for making key board groups, I would just use whatever I had, or could get.
Softer brass just goes longer before it needs annealing, while harder brass may need annealing sooner, but I can't say that any one brand of brass lasts longer, or doesn't last as long, as some other brand, if they are all properly used.
For commercial brass, I still prefer Winchester over the others.
I have not, as yet anyway, found any problem with this brass.
If I want top quality for a specific purpose. [making 6.5x55AI, forexample]
Then Lapua gets the nod.
Federal brass is too soft to suit me, primer pockets loosen far too soon.
R-P is middle of the road, and I do use it some.
One problem with R-P is reduced capacity in some chamberings. [7x57 is a good example]
Norma is great quality brass, but is soft in certain chamberings, for some reason.
Nosler brass, I have only tried in two chamberings, but found it "soft" like Federal brass.
I have some PRVI brass for my 7x57, and I do like it just fine.
Also have a bit of RWS 7x57 brass, and it is also high quality, but you cannot buy it as brass only, to my knowledge.
These are simply my opinions, of course, but based on a lot of reloading experience.
Regards, Eagleye
I have not, as yet anyway, found any problem with this brass.
If I want top quality for a specific purpose. [making 6.5x55AI, forexample]
Then Lapua gets the nod.
Federal brass is too soft to suit me, primer pockets loosen far too soon.
R-P is middle of the road, and I do use it some.
One problem with R-P is reduced capacity in some chamberings. [7x57 is a good example]
Norma is great quality brass, but is soft in certain chamberings, for some reason.
Nosler brass, I have only tried in two chamberings, but found it "soft" like Federal brass.
I have some PRVI brass for my 7x57, and I do like it just fine.
Also have a bit of RWS 7x57 brass, and it is also high quality, but you cannot buy it as brass only, to my knowledge.
These are simply my opinions, of course, but based on a lot of reloading experience.
Regards, Eagleye
Yeah, like I said, not sure if my description was accurate, just kind of hammered out my observations.
I shoot my 308 out of a Norc M305, so it's going to have a looser throat then your nice rifle. I anneal even 3 firings so that might be why I did not notice this issue with other brass, except the winchester which for some reason might loosen up before my usual annealing cycle.
It's one reason why some of my observations are so profound, the fact that I can get as many firings out of R-P in a brass eating M14 is quite the miracle. The winchester fares well too except for my seating issues, and Fed, seems to work very well and give me the best accuracy but wears out like clockwork after about 4 firings just as Zediker said it would.
Hornady brass on the other hand . . . I dont' know whats up with that stuff, it's done after like 1 or 2 reloads.
For the M305, you can imagine I am not shooting sub-moa with that machine, so my observations are based more on economy and brass life then they are accuracy.
I'm on like 15 reloads with Lapua brass. I just love the stuff. When I try using Remington or Winchester brass I find I get really inconsistent results.
I throw every piece of federal brass I find into the scrap bucket. I find the primer pockets become loose way too quickly for my liking and I see sign of case head stretching as well.
For bulk loading for semi-autos I'll use whatever commercial brass I can find (aside from Federal).
Generally I find European brass to be of better quality than North American brass.
I throw every piece of federal brass I find into the scrap bucket. I find the primer pockets become loose way too quickly for my liking and I see sign of case head stretching as well.
For bulk loading for semi-autos I'll use whatever commercial brass I can find (aside from Federal).
Generally I find European brass to be of better quality than North American brass.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
Times they be a changing. More and more F class shooters are switching to Win brass. Yes, it is mass produced but many chamberings are very well made WITH benefits.
Norma is now the cream of the crop. Pricey but amazingly well made. Alloy has also changed catering more to the competition shooter vs hunter. If they can afford it, comp shooters will choose this now.
Rem is surpringly very well made but not alloyed for super high pressures. Keep within SAAMI mag pressures and it lives very nicely. The smallest group I have shot that was scored at 1000m was with Rem brass in a 7RM.
Hrn, Nosler are all pricey trying to cater to comp or accuracy minded shooters using fancy lables and marketing. Not impressed so far and certainly not at their prices.
PRVI is the sleeper brand. Well made but some prep needed to get to match quality but the price.... WOW. if you want affordable 338LM brass, this is it.
Fed brass by itself usually meets with alot of neg response. Yet, Fed GMM ammo is considered the best factory match ammo you can buy. Funny how that works.
In general, there is no production brass that is "bad". Depending on your skill as a reloader and shooter, you may not notice a thing from any brass including milspec pull down.
There are many mechanical features that have no affect on your groups and others that do. Shoot the stuff and decide for yourself.
Jerry
Norma is now the cream of the crop. Pricey but amazingly well made. Alloy has also changed catering more to the competition shooter vs hunter. If they can afford it, comp shooters will choose this now.
Rem is surpringly very well made but not alloyed for super high pressures. Keep within SAAMI mag pressures and it lives very nicely. The smallest group I have shot that was scored at 1000m was with Rem brass in a 7RM.
Hrn, Nosler are all pricey trying to cater to comp or accuracy minded shooters using fancy lables and marketing. Not impressed so far and certainly not at their prices.
PRVI is the sleeper brand. Well made but some prep needed to get to match quality but the price.... WOW. if you want affordable 338LM brass, this is it.
Fed brass by itself usually meets with alot of neg response. Yet, Fed GMM ammo is considered the best factory match ammo you can buy. Funny how that works.
In general, there is no production brass that is "bad". Depending on your skill as a reloader and shooter, you may not notice a thing from any brass including milspec pull down.
There are many mechanical features that have no affect on your groups and others that do. Shoot the stuff and decide for yourself.
Jerry
I've heard that the GMM stuff is pretty good but never tried it. Just the regular F.C. stuff I find doesn't last so long, have you had different results?
Does not Federal also own/operate Lake City? I've never had any problems with L.C. brass.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
All brass sold in the US must meet SAAMI requirements. The fact that we shooters hot rod the loading not withstanding.
If the brass is loaded to the assigned pressure, stuff lasts. I have used Fed brass in my Norc M305 and it gave me very good service. Only loaded to NATO spec loads so quite mild even when compared to 308 Win loads.
Some brass alloy is super robust so we reloaders get the impression " no pressure signs" means no pressure. Not so... but overly strong brass then gets the "normal" title and everything else is considered poor.
I am concerned with holes in paper. If components give me the accuracy and repeatability I require, they are good stuff. Otherwise, I don't use them.
ATK is a monstrous company that makes a huge range of stuff. Many brands are under this corp. There are only a few actual factories that make this stuff in the US and many of these factories make product under different lables.
In fact, don't be surprised that a US brand is actually produced offshore. Or made by a "competitor".
Look up Olin/Winchester - they make stuff.
There is only so many companies making our toys.
Jerry
If the brass is loaded to the assigned pressure, stuff lasts. I have used Fed brass in my Norc M305 and it gave me very good service. Only loaded to NATO spec loads so quite mild even when compared to 308 Win loads.
Some brass alloy is super robust so we reloaders get the impression " no pressure signs" means no pressure. Not so... but overly strong brass then gets the "normal" title and everything else is considered poor.
I am concerned with holes in paper. If components give me the accuracy and repeatability I require, they are good stuff. Otherwise, I don't use them.
ATK is a monstrous company that makes a huge range of stuff. Many brands are under this corp. There are only a few actual factories that make this stuff in the US and many of these factories make product under different lables.
In fact, don't be surprised that a US brand is actually produced offshore. Or made by a "competitor".
Look up Olin/Winchester - they make stuff.
There is only so many companies making our toys.
Jerry
I was glad to see that my post fit very close to your experienced findings, Jerry.
In the early to mid 1960s, when I was a new, but eager reloader, I used Norma components pretty well exclusively. Maybe that was because my first and virtually only, loading manual I ever had, was the Norma GunBugs Guide. All 25 pages of it, with everything one needed to know about safe reloading in it. I used many loading charts from various companies after that, but never bothered to get another reloading manual.
With this post on various brands of brass, I looked up my old GunBug guide, to see what Norma said about it. I selected this bit, to copy.
In the early to mid 1960s, when I was a new, but eager reloader, I used Norma components pretty well exclusively. Maybe that was because my first and virtually only, loading manual I ever had, was the Norma GunBugs Guide. All 25 pages of it, with everything one needed to know about safe reloading in it. I used many loading charts from various companies after that, but never bothered to get another reloading manual.
With this post on various brands of brass, I looked up my old GunBug guide, to see what Norma said about it. I selected this bit, to copy.
