.22 l . Does it even exist ?

Dagmaar said:
Better safe than sorry on that one Kamlooky . I've heard people say it is possible to do , but personally , I'd never risk it .
I always wonder why there are still rifles made to chamber all three when , the long round is really not used anymore ( and from responses here it seems it is a largely redundant round ) .
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x2

In fact, there are some rifles, for example the early Marlin 39's, that are only safe to fire *standard* velocity 22lr due to the design of the bolt. The 40gr bullet in the 22 LR will likely produce more pressure than the 29gr bullet in the 22 Long, so I wouldn't assume the rounds are interchangeable.

Here's a link with some discussion about ammunition in an early Marlin 39:

http://www.marlin-collectors.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=8795
 
I know I'm Probably being too careful , but I don't even shoot the 40 gr in my old cooey . I use the lower grain just to be kind to the old thing .
 
With all my years of being associated with guns, ammunition and shooting, I thought I had heard it all.
But this thread breaks new ground for me. I never, ever, thought I would hear it said that people were afraid to shoot the standard higher velocity 22 ammunition in their regular 22 rifles!
 
H4831 said:
With all my years of being associated with guns, ammunition and shooting, I thought I had heard it all.
But this thread breaks new ground for me. I never, ever, thought I would hear it said that people were afraid to shoot the standard higher velocity 22 ammunition in their regular 22 rifles!
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:D
Given the thickness of the majority of these barrels, I can grasp your
humor.
I had one 22 years ago that was marked "Long" only.
There was a ring in the barrel about 2/3's the way down.
Never knew how it got there or if it was there when I received it.
One day I was oiling her and I felt a bump in the rag I was using.
Barely noticeable, but it was there.
Never effected the ability of this gal to place round holes in paper
either.
 
H4831 said:
With all my years of being associated with guns, ammunition and shooting, I thought I had heard it all.
But this thread breaks new ground for me. I never, ever, thought I would hear it said that people were afraid to shoot the standard higher velocity 22 ammunition in their regular 22 rifles!
Click to expand...

Guess what ? I'm new and learning . I didn't even know if they made the higher velocity when this gun was invented , so I was being careful . I'm guessing from your post that shooting it should be fine . Thanks for the info :D
 
The 22 long uses the same bullet as the 22 short. That's how the long came into existence.

22sllr.jpg

Short, Long, Long Rifle
 
kamlooky said:
:D
Given the thickness of the majority of these barrels, I can grasp your
humor.
I had one 22 years ago that was marked "Long" only.
There was a ring in the barrel about 2/3's the way down.
Never knew how it got there or if it was there when I received it.
One day I was oiling her and I felt a bump in the rag I was using.
Barely noticeable, but it was there.
Never effected the ability of this gal to place round holes in paper
either.
Click to expand...

It sounds strange but it is true. The ring around the inside of the barrel on an old 22 was caused by using corrosive primers.
In the 1930s it was common for an older, at that time, 22 to have a ring in the barrel. The 22 ammunition in the stores in the 1930s, at least from the mid 30s and on, all had non corrosive primers.
If someone had, or was taliking about, an old 22, some one would always ask, "Is it ringed?"
As you say, it didn't seem to effect accuracy, as they all shot minute of rabbit at 20 or 30 feet.
In the guns I saw with it, the ring was always about three inches from the chamber.
 
kamlooky said:
Sorry Dana, not meaning to hi-jack but this thought ran between
me ears....
Just curious as to the harm one could do firing a long rifle round (s) down a
rifle chambered for the short and or long only?
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Long and long rifle is the same chambering.
A rifle chambered for short only, would not chamber a long or long rifle.
The only 22 rifles I have seen chambered for short only, were semi autos used for galary shooting at country fairs.
A booth would have about four guns on a chain, so they couldn't be pointed anywhere except down range. Each target had a little mark, something like a little X and you got three shots to try and cut out all the x. All of us young hillbillies who had sneaked into the fair without paying, thought we could obliterate that little mark and make ourselves some money.
We could have too, except the operator of games at fairs always have somethng figured out to keep the eager beavers from winning. In this case, the slow bullets were round nose and when you thought you had eliminated the mark, the operator would use his finger on the back of the target and push it back, invarriably explsing a bit of the black mark.
If the bullets had been semi wad cutters, the operator would have gone broke. But with those bullets we never won.
They were shorts.
 
i often shoot the 22 long CB rounds from CCI (or Remington 22lr subsonic) in my 22lr bolt action because it is very quiet and still kills bunnies, grouse and pests.

Less noise to alert sensitive and stupid people even though I shoot in places were it is legal.
I usually have a box of the CBs around.

These will of course not reliably cycle a semi 22 of any kind.

Did I mention they are quiet?\
 
Rocket Surgery said:
One time I saw this gun that you loaded 22shorts into the buttstock, it was pretty small and the guy said it was popular in the 50's
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Browning Semi-Auto model was available in Short chambering. There were a few other semi's that loaded through the buttstock too.

Short ammo used to be cheaper than Longs or Long rifle. Not so much, any more.

FWIW, we always looked at the Long ammo as being just an option to save on jams when switching back to the 'expensive' LR ammo, as the shorts often left a ring of mung in the chamber that had to be cleaned out.

Remember. The .22 Short was THE original .22 rimfire round. It all started there! :)


Cheers
Trev
 
I am getting so fed up on all this hype about bullets travelling less than the speed of sound being "quiet."
Because it is sub-sonic has absolutely nothing to do with the noise it makes.
Of course, bullets that travel slow make less of a report than those that travel faster, because the slower they travel, the less powder it takes to drive them and the less noise they make as the bullet exits the barrel.
The old standard power 22 shorts were always what you guys call sub-sonic, due to their low velocity and they always were quite quiet.
But being "sub-sonic," had nothing whatsoever, to do with the noise they made.
Many standard velocity long rifle rifle 22 cartridges launch the bullet below the speed of sound. They are not quiet. Just less noise than the faster bullets, because less powder is used to propel them.
Almost all pistol bullets, except the magnums, leave the gun at sub-somic speeds, therefore all pistols, except the magnums, should be quiet when fired.
If you give the standard answer that it is the short barrel that makes the loud noise, then you are just reinforcing my argument. That is, it is the powder burning that makes the report, louder in a short barrel because more is burning as the bullet leaves the barrel.
But, whether the bullet leaves the barrel faster or slower than the speed of sound, as absolutely nothing to do with the noise heard when the gun fires.
 
H4831
Pertaining to subsonic rounds
I agree with some of your comments, but a bullet exiting the barrel supersonic does make noise and contribute to the report. If you've spent time pulling targets in the butts you can attest to this. The crack of the bullet travelling overhead is very loud. As it would be at the muzzle. The large part of the report of a subsonic round is the expanding gases accelerating to supersonic speed as they exit the muzzle. They momentarily accelerate past the bullet and then due to their rapid expansion and much lower mass they quickly dissipate. Example is the gas in an inflated ballon- when punctured the gas breaks the sound barrier as it rapidly accelerates on escaping causing the bang.
This is also the reason that suppressors do not work so well on revolvers - the gases escaping at the air gap are supersonic.
Longer barrels on some firearms allow the gases to expand down the bore but are contained and if the barrel is long enough would create little if any report.
As you have said loud report from handguns but mild report from long barreled rifles. Part of the report may be caused by powder being burned on exit but there is no flammable powder in a ballon and the report is significant on bursting and the more gas compressed the louder that report.
 
I have indeed set targets, for many centre fire rifles. What I heard was a barely perceptable--whit and click-- as the bullet went throght the target, followed by the boom, when the noise from the rifle firing reached the pit.
I have downoaded several calibres of rifle, including 270, 30-06 and 44 magnum, down to as low as the 500 feet per second range.
Regardless of what calibre, every time you decrease the amount of powder, the bullet travels slower and the noise is reduced.
However, I can assure you, there is no distinction as the bullet drops below the speed of sound. Rate of noise reduction is the same.
That is, dropping from 1200 to 1050 fps will be no greater rate reduction in noise, than will dropping from 1050 to 900, plus or minus, one way or the other, amounts that are undetectable by a human ear.
The hype about the so-called super-sonic 22 shells some company makes, are simply constructed by using a small amount of very fast powder, so the powder is all burned by the time it exits a 22 rifle barrel.
I can do the same thing with centre fire cartridges and the noise of the report the rifle makes is not related to the speed of sound of the bullet.
 
I shot literally thousands of gophers when I was a kid with .22 longs in a Mossberg semi-auto. They were as accurate as the long rifles and at the time were enough cheaper tht it allowed me to buy more ammo at the local hardware store.
 
We can only relay our own experiences with this stuff. However, it stands to reason that a projectile that is supersonic, anywhere along its path will create a sonic crack. Then it also stands to reason that said projectile will contribute to the report at the muzzle because it is supersonic at that point also. The amount of contribution to the report is undoubtedly much less than the sound created by the rapidly accelerating gases but a contribution nonetheless. If the speed of the gases is diminished to subsonic prior to exiting the report is diminished also.
Suppressors on highpower rifles for instance slow the release of the accelerating gases but do not affect the speed of the bullet. The sonic crack of the bullet still occurs. This effect is used to considerable benefit by the military because even though the crack is heard the direction of the source is largely not identifiable due to the suppression of the gas.
There are also instances of marksmen placing a shot to pass near a solid object, to create a rebound or echo of the sonic crack as it passes that object, for deception purposes.
 
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This thread is providing me with a great deal of interesting information on .22 rounds . Good stuff . Thanks to all posters .
Dana
 
I may have missed it if someone said it, but CCI not only loads the CB Long (29gr bullet @ 710fps) but also a HV Long (29gr bullet @ 1215fps). I have a box I purchased last week in front of me as I type. They're for my Bernardelli Baby, a versatile little pistol that (with the proper magazine) will fire and cycle with CB Shorts, HV Shorts, CB Longs and HV Longs.

Those of you who don't see the need for the 22 Long don't remember that quite a few European vest pocket guns were chambered for the Long as well as the Short and the .25ACP.

Have no fear the Longs are out there, though it may take a little searching to turn them up.
 
H4831 said:
But, whether the bullet leaves the barrel faster or slower than the speed of sound, as absolutely nothing to do with the noise heard when the gun fires.
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Wrong.

A supersonic bullet will ALWAYS have a supersonic crack, even when shot through a silencer.

I have worked the butts in a DCRA match and EVERY bullet going through the target frames made a loud supersonic crack. It was loud enough that most of us wore hearing protection.

In WW2, the German infantry made a prototype firearm called, I think, a Vampir. It was a suppressed 8X57 that shot heavy cast bullets at just under the speed of sound. It was accompanied by a night vision scope! in 1945! The shooter wore a backpack that weighed over 45 lbs (tube technology then, no transistors) and had a battery life of about 10 minutes.

As mentioned, the report you hear as the shooter from a subsonic round is the sound of the powder gasses escaping the barrel behind the bullet. The lower the muzzle pressure when the bullet leaves the barrel, the quieter the report. Silencers do nothing more than bleed off the gas behind the bullet to let the gas escape slowly and make as little noise as possible. They also usually have a deleterious effect on accuracy.
 
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