EESA Zombie Apocalypse 2012 Multigun (Update Post 31)

[JOJOPINTO]

=mechanik;7667985]Thanks to everyone that put on this match and thanks as well to all the match sponsors.

Some feedback:

- Good mix of challenges. I liked that there was a mix of close, medium, and long range rifle shots. Some matches seem to not do any close rifle shots for some reason. I'm still a n00b, so I liked the fact that every stage didn't feel like it was punishing me.

- That being said... autopoppers at 200 yards? Seriously? Too difficult for most. I would suggest making these bonus targets with large bonuses to help cut down on par time timeouts. Then those that can make them can still make them if they wish but those of us that pretty much know they can't could just skip them and apply that time better elsewhere. Even just engaging the targets each with one shot to avoide FTE penalties takes valuable time when all you have is 180 seconds to work with.

- Cut down the length (as in time required) for the longer stages by about 20%. There always seem to be some stages that are designed to be just barely finishable by top shooters with clean runs and no malfunctions. Plan the stage to take less time and there should hopefully be less timeouts. Top shooters will still differentiate themselves by shooting it faster. Plus if less shooters consume the full par time, the match will run faster.

- Favourite stages were the low-light surprise stage, and the NEA stage.

- Painting autopoppers blue and having them in the shade and at distance so you can't see them even with a 3x optic is just evil. White paint would have been better.

The auto poppers at 200 were visible with out any magnification, we kept them a dark colour and put a white back ground behind them because if you paint them white the paint is gone after a few hits... We use auto re-seting targets to speed up the stage re-set, it would not be time effective to go and paint them after every shooter...

I agree they were not easy shots but we were also trying to challenge our competitors and have a wide variety of targets at different distances...I worked
that range all day so I had the pleasure of watching everyone shot that stage, it was not the 200 yard shots taking the time it was the poor shotgun reloading and lack of shell holders that slowed most down ( me included )


I must admit I was not happy about the partime on the longer stages, that was untill I had one competitor do the 300 m range in just over 100 seconds, yes he was a experianced shooter but still close to 60 years old, so i came to the conclusion that i just suck and need to practice, take the one shot at the long stuff and hit or miss move on, after I get that throgh my head and practice my shotgun reloading I will be where I need to be...

 

[mechanik]

Lots of guys hit those 200 m Popper's with no trouble...3 gun requires practice just like any other sport

Of course. But it's hard to practice much though as there are not many ranges holding these types of matches. If you don't belong to EESA or Guelph you're pretty much screwed.

Let's use IPSC as an analogy. For a beginning 3-gunner, it's analogous to shooting your first IPSC match at a level 3. There are going to be a lot of things beyond your skill level as you are jumping straight into the deep end. If all there are for matches is a couple of Level 3's per year, and there aren't ranges in your area that are IPSC clubs and have the appropriate targets and props, it's hard to practice a lot of things other than basic mechanics.

There doesn't seem to be the equivalent to a Level 1 or Level 2 multigun match in Ontario either. Somewhere where you can get your feet wet, ya know?

I'm just trying to provide the n00bie perspective here. If you tweak the course of fire slightly you can make it a bit more n00b friendly and the top guys will still have a challenge. E.g. maybe you give people the option to engage that target from 200 m or run up and do it from 100. Or maybe you make it a bonus target. Etc.

 

[mechanik]

The auto poppers at 200 were visible with out any magnification, we kept them a dark colour and put a white back ground behind them because if you paint them white the paint is gone after a few hits... We use auto re-seting targets to speed up the stage re-set, it would not be time effective to go and paint them after every shooter...

There were other ones on other stages that weren't setup with a background. When they were in the sun they were fine, but the sun moves, clouds move, etc... and when in the shade with no backdrop they were really hard to pick out.

 

[Onagoth]

Respectfully, I'd rather the noobie change their gear and practice to suit the match rather than change the match to suit the noobie

 

[P90Puma]

Respectfully, I'd rather the noobie change their gear and practice to suit the match rather than change the match to suit the noobie

I'm with Onagoth on this one, I haven't really shot since moving to Markham in April, and yet placed well at this match, running non optimum gear. (1x aimpoint, just a dump pouch for shells, etc)

Know what you can and can't hit and move on.

 

[mechanik]

Respectfully, I'd rather the noobie change their gear and practice to suit the match rather than change the match to suit the noobie

There's always going to be newbies though. If there aren't, then your sport is stagnant at best and dying at worst. You always want an influx of new people getting into the sport, especially when it's a relatively new sport like 3Gun is to Canada.

I do agree that there were a lot of poor gear choices. I'm not saying you should allow for that. I'm not saying you should make the match be just the lowest common denominator either. Just saying made it a *tad* easier and keep in mind that not everyone is a raging 3gunner.

 

[colt45gunner]

200 m shot is nothing for a rifle !! Shooter needs to be able to hit that, practice, etc...
main thing is to have rifle sighted in and get a steady shot off.. I'm not that good with stable shots, unless have a rest...so I just pull trigger when cross hairs swing by the target and get lucky on some of the longer ones..
Stages allowed for various ways to shoot them with run & gun, and challenging shots, etc..
Overall great stages, lots of fun.

1 thing, the 2 clays that are thrown up i air by popper, should have been bonus points, (by hitting them, you minus a few seconds of time ?) and not FTE if didn't have time to, etc..imho

 

[cbabes]

There's always going to be newbies though. If there aren't, then your sport is stagnant at best and dying at worst. You always want an influx of new people getting into the sport, especially when it's a relatively new sport like 3Gun is to Canada.

I do agree that there were a lot of poor gear choices. I'm not saying you should allow for that. I'm not saying you should make the match be just the lowest common denominator either. Just saying made it a *tad* easier and keep in mind that not everyone is a raging 3gunner.

That's how you get better. You need to be challenged. After a match like this you go back to the range and practice what you were not good at and return to the next match for redemption. I know people that won't shoot matches because they are afraid of looking bad. Those people will never get good.

 

[7.62mm]

I appreciate the feed back..
To address a couple of issues:
The only stage I designed for this match, was the indoor stage....(and I designed it as I built it on the Friday). I farmed the stage design out to our members, as I feel it addd variety, and it takes the work load off of me. 2 of the stages I parred down, because they were to involved, and were going to take too much time. I think as first time stage designers, there is a tendancy to bite off more than can be chewed...very common problem. But those individuals learned something, and in the end will make for better matches in the future.

There is no way I was going to have a match with a $50 match fee, that would be designed for the lowest common denominator. I think there was great variety in the stages, multiple solutions to the outdoor stages, and suited the intermedite ability shooter. Let it be known, I did argue to take out the 200 metre shots, but, I like to run things as a democracy. I put it to the members who were there for the setup, and in the end, it was decided to leave them as is. Btw, you now know what you need to practice....200 metres is a very doable shot, for the size of targets that were placed there. Those 2 targets should have accounted for about 1% of the match score....the longer someone blammed away at them not hitting them, the bigger percentage that would have added....as I suggested at the match breifing, take a couple of shots then move on...

There were a couple things about the match, that I think could be improved...and they will improve for the next match that I MD.

I thought I explained par time well enough at the match breifing, and as was pointed out, shotgun reloading eats up a ton of time if one isn't competant at it. Also running reliable equipment is essential to being successful at multigun. Failures and the subsequent action drills eat up time quickly, if you aren't competant to get the gun running again quickly...

I hope this addresses a few of your concerns.
Thanks

 

[euxx]

The auto poppers at 200...

Any details on the auto poppers you guys used? What kind of targets and reset mechanism?

 

[7.62mm]

Any details on the auto poppers you guys used? What kind of targets and reset mechanism?

Have a look at the mgm speed steel and skinny sammies....we had those as well as our own design for the actual popper, but jojo got the springs from mgm!

 

[JOJOPINTO]

Any details on the auto poppers you guys used? What kind of targets and reset mechanism?

The ones on the 300m range I made them the same as the colt speed steel ones from MGM targets... on the 100m range one of our members supplied the MGM slim sammie and a colt speed steel...

h ttp://mgmtargets.com/tstore/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=3

I made them the same as the MGM ones as I liked the option to swap the target size if we wanted... just a matter of cutting more steel..

 

[mechanik]

There is no way I was going to have a match with a $50 match fee, that would be designed for the lowest common denominator.

You guys are taking it beyond what I meant. I explicitly said don't do that.

What I did say is with some small changes you could make it more newbie friendly without taking the challenge away from the raging 3gunners. That's all.

Anyway, I still had fun and I don't want anyone to think otherwise. Don't take it as an insult or anything guys. Just trying to help. It's not in any way an attack.

 

[7.62mm]

You guys are taking it beyond what I meant. I explicitly said don't do that.

What I did say is with some small changes you could make it more newbie friendly without taking the challenge away from the raging 3gunners. That's all.

Anyway, I still had fun and I don't want anyone to think otherwise. Don't take it as an insult or anything guys. Just trying to help. It's not in any way an attack.

And I am explicitly explaining where my thought process is.....I think it is you that are taking it the wrong way! I realize as a match director, that there is no pleasing everyone....once you try putting a match on of your own, you will better understand. As I stated, I appreciate the constructive feedback, your thoughts have been noted!

 

[PaulR42]

I also found some of the long range shots very difficult to see, but that's just the effects of age! I shot the match, times out several time, but i was only shooting against myself and I had a blast.

I had no equipment malfunctions (except for the bag for my shot shells), I had my wife sew a small piece of Velcro into to keep it closed. Her idea of a small piece, covered the entire opening, I couldn't get the damn bag opened!!!!

I'm not all that fast, reloading the shotgun is defiantly slow, and I should have fired one shot on the long distance and moved on, but it was my choice to fire a few more. With the par time I didn't get to finish a few stages, but I also understand that others are waiting to shoot as well, up to me to try to speed up.

Next time I will defiantly take the shot for the long range, but them I'm moving on. The thing that I liked the most, the option as to which firearm to use at different stages. The seated stage with the 5 or so targets at a moderate range for the hand gun, I skipped them, came back and got them with the rifle instead! My choice! But then again,,,,, I really liked the indoor dark range, loved the 180 field!

See you next year.

 

[667]

Yeaaaahhhhh... I have to side with Onagoth and others re. the difficulty or rather "challege" of a match...

Shooters gotta up their game.

As far as par time goes... Again, up your game guys and learn how to manage your time/stage. Many "time out" by hopelessly plugging away at one target they just cant seem to hit... Trick is to give it a couple shots take a mis and move on...
Do the math.

 

[speedjunkiesracing]

Yeaaaahhhhh... I have to side with Onagoth and others re. the difficulty or rather "challege" of a match...

Shooters gotta up their game.

As far as par time goes... Again, up your game guys and learn how to manage your time/stage. Many "time out" by hopelessly plugging away at one target they just cant seem to hit... Trick is to give it a couple shots take a mis and move on...
Do the math.

X2 Shooters gotta up their game.


I need to improve my game. I try and make a list of stuff to work on after each match.

Started stage 3.
Bad
- volunteered to go first.
- did not have my 4x4 shell holders. Used 3x3 shell holders instead. oops who knew counting to 3 could be so hard.
- used my new semi shotgun for the first time
- I sucked at counting for reloading.
Good
- only took 2 shots at each 100y and 200y steel targets. Got the 1s missed the 2s
- did not par out
- new shotgun worked great.


Next stage 1
Bad
- should have change choke to IC or Skeet. Shots were only 7 yards ? away from swinging clays. Might have helped ?
Good
- Suppressed AR

Stage 2
Bad
- only got 1 of the 3 water bottles at 80 yards?
- had a plan of how to shoot the COF. Forgot it when buzzer went
Good
- only took 2 shots at each water bottle

Stage 4 indoor I think
Bad
-kept pressing button on back of flashlight
Good
- did not care about the light and got all my hits

Stage 5
Bad
- went first again
- made way to many handgun mag changes. Again unable to count to ten after buzzer
- shotgun loading/counting shells I messed up again
- missed the swinging handgun target completly. Took 3 shots at it.
- texas star kicked my azz again.

Good
- tried to get the one clay and steel plate with one slug shot. Got the clay but missed the steel.
- got both the flying clays
- think I am figuring out how to shoot steel with my handgun

 

[speedjunkiesracing]

Are the results posted anywhere yet ? Don't see on website..

X2
Thanks

 

[Onagoth]

I have always used my match deficiencies to determine what I need to practice, not what I need to suggest that match directors change.

Next week at FNH, a few of us will be taking shots at 450y. There is no way we can practice that and be proficient. That doesn't mean any one of us is about to suggest that the MD make them bonus rounds, or bring them closer.

Matches always have to have a challenge, but be doable. Most of us like that challenge. A 450y shot is doable. I plan on chronying my ammo and know my trajectories from 50 to 300y and using a calculator to make a good attempt at those ranges.

If I miss, I won't be about to say that its unfair. AFAIK, as long as guys on the AMU can make shots from 600-800y with iron sights, than anything I miss that is easier than that is entirely my fault

 

[banger]

I have always used my match deficiencies to determine what I need to practice, not what I need to suggest that match directors change.

Next week at FNH, a few of us will be taking shots at 450y. There is no way we can practice that and be proficient. That doesn't mean any one of us is about to suggest that the MD make them bonus rounds, or bring them closer.

Matches always have to have a challenge, but be doable. Most of us like that challenge. A 450y shot is doable. I plan on chronying my ammo and know my trajectories from 50 to 300y and using a calculator to make a good attempt at those ranges.

If I miss, I won't be about to say that its unfair. AFAIK, as long as guys on the AMU can make shots from 600-800y with iron sights, than anything I miss that is easier than that is entirely my fault

Hot dam..... at one BRM3G match, i had no problem hitting the 550yard target (hail mary and pray) but i couldn't hit the 80 to 90 yard lollipop targets I think i'll send A. Horner an email and complain.

Even though i wasn't at your match i would like to complain ...... Next year, can you provide people to caddie my equipment and load mags? I'm VERY lazy.

All joking aside. Get to know your equipment and practice, practice, and practice some more.