Thoughts on guns, bear, and everyone surviving the bush.
- Thread starter Ardent
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No f**king way!! I don't believe for a second that bear spray is more effective than an appropriate caliber-bullet weight firearm!!
I have bear spray, but only because N'tl Parks do not permit me to carry a firearm. So I take that s**t there. But I am aware that it's no guarantee.
I travel and hunt in grizzly country all the time also, and I always take a medium bore firearm, when I go in the bush: .338WM, 9.3x62, .45-70, 8x57 etc...
Edit to add: If you read the books by James Gary Shelton, he used to advocate bear spray, but after experience, testing, results with people that had bear encounters and used it, he no longer advises using spray as a deterrent, unless you're in a stupid f**king N'tl Park that will not allow guns.
I have bear spray, but only because N'tl Parks do not permit me to carry a firearm. So I take that s**t there. But I am aware that it's no guarantee.
I travel and hunt in grizzly country all the time also, and I always take a medium bore firearm, when I go in the bush: .338WM, 9.3x62, .45-70, 8x57 etc...
Edit to add: If you read the books by James Gary Shelton, he used to advocate bear spray, but after experience, testing, results with people that had bear encounters and used it, he no longer advises using spray as a deterrent, unless you're in a stupid f**king N'tl Park that will not allow guns.
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I am a rifle guy, I do not have a shotgun. the only animal I have ever had to face charging was a 40" moose that had one bullet through its lungs. A 156 gr bullet from my 6.5 AI to its sternum brought it to a halt. Very quickly actually. I think it is mostly a rifle you can shoot well off hand, and has a fairly heavy bullet. A lee enfield with 215 woodleighs would be just fine for me. The ten shot mag is good, a friend was charged by 3 black bears.
AlbertaGunslinger
Regular
- Location
- The Wide Open Prairie
Well I missed the memo! I live north, and works hours out of a small town in true northern bush, often unarmed. Guess we're just lucky.I like having a gun, and see it's utility- but no, it's definitely not mandatory.
Sorry, I should have been more specific. When I say up north I do not mean Northern BC, I mean Nunavut and NWT north. Different bears as well but hey, it it is effective on a polar bear, grizzlies and blacks are in trouble. You will also find that in certain far north national parks there is an exemption to the normal no guns rule for express purpose of protection from bears.
AlbertaGunslinger
Regular
- Location
- The Wide Open Prairie
The incident you describe sounds very unusual for a grizzly bear as they rarely stalk humans, I agree with you about being more scared of cougars because with a cougar you are more likley to be taken by suprise and not have time to react.
With regards to shot placement on an approaching/charging bear, I would not try any type of CNS shot. I have shot a few whitetails, muleys and one bull elk all with full frontal shots, not one animal even blinked. All of them dropped stone cold dead in their tracks without even a twitch.
While an angry charging bear is completely different that a dosile 350 lb muley buck, I believe the terminal ballistics of a slug or .30 cal partition would be very effective coming head on into the chest(major internal damage) and a much better option than trying a low percentage CNS hit.
Just my opinion.
While an angry charging bear is completely different that a dosile 350 lb muley buck, I believe the terminal ballistics of a slug or .30 cal partition would be very effective coming head on into the chest(major internal damage) and a much better option than trying a low percentage CNS hit.
Just my opinion.
A few thoughts -
1. This thread is serving to reinforce my unproven (to me directly) belief that a shotgun, even with 12g slugs, is a bit light duty for bear duty, especially the bush kings - Griz.
2. Old Northern joke we tell tourists -- "How do you tell Grizzly poop from Black bear poop? Griz poop has bear spray can chunks in it." Seems to me a can of WD-40 and a lighter might prove more effective in a Nat'l park?? Just askin, not saying I would.
3. Ive posted pics before of a trio of Grizzleys visiting a family friends yard; all the more reason to have at LEAST one heavy backup. Or Two.
4. In a charge situation, 5/6 rounds out of that 30/30 are goin in, in short order. #6 is in case the first 5 dont quite do the job. IMHO. Also, practice reloading.
5. Like that bayonet idea. Legal for the old Lee Enfield .303s as well?
1. This thread is serving to reinforce my unproven (to me directly) belief that a shotgun, even with 12g slugs, is a bit light duty for bear duty, especially the bush kings - Griz.
2. Old Northern joke we tell tourists -- "How do you tell Grizzly poop from Black bear poop? Griz poop has bear spray can chunks in it." Seems to me a can of WD-40 and a lighter might prove more effective in a Nat'l park?? Just askin, not saying I would.
3. Ive posted pics before of a trio of Grizzleys visiting a family friends yard; all the more reason to have at LEAST one heavy backup. Or Two.
4. In a charge situation, 5/6 rounds out of that 30/30 are goin in, in short order. #6 is in case the first 5 dont quite do the job. IMHO. Also, practice reloading.
5. Like that bayonet idea. Legal for the old Lee Enfield .303s as well?
Do people actually believe "In a charge situation, 5/6 rounds out of that 30/30 are goin in, in short order. #6 is in case the first 5 dont quite do the job. IMHO. Also, practice reloading." Practice reloading????? Come on!
The incident you describe sounds very unusual for a grizzly bear as they rarely stalk humans, I agree with you about being more scared of cougars because with a cougar you are more likley to be taken by suprise and not have time to react. WTF???
So, I am forced to ask: other than a couple of posters who seem to have found this thread too astonishing to continue to comment, have ANY of you actually ever seen a bear run? Do people really think anything other than a very well aimed CNS shot will reliably stop ANY animal in less than at least a few seconds?
"I have shot a few whitetails, muleys and one bull elk all with full frontal shots, not one animal even blinked. All of them dropped stone cold dead in their tracks without even a twitch." Then you better shoot some more, because that was just blind luck. No chest shot is a sure bet to drop anything "without even a twitch". Experience will prove it to you.
Just makes me want to go, Hmmmm.............. The BS in this type of thread, spread from complete inexperience, is almost depressing.
In a defensive shooting scenario against a large dangerous animal, a chest shot is a poor choice regardless of the gun carried. The point of shooting is to stop the animal's forward progression, thus you must break his engine (brain or spine) or his transmission (shoulders and hips). True. And shoulders and hips will be pointing in your direction and very hard to break from that angle.
Amusing, and not true- try spraying a bear with it and see what happens. It works extremely well. Even if you can find a video of a bear eating it, you might eat nuclear hot-hot sauce, but you're not about to put I up your nose and spray it in your eyes. True.
The trouble with bear defense threads is they always seem to be most interesting to the least experienced, and the least experienced always seem to have the most complex theories about how to deal with them.
Only a very well aimed shot will instantly stop a charge, and almost any normal deer gun with a good bullet will be sufficient, if you make that shot properly. Making the shot properly is extremely difficult. In a true charging situation, you will get only one. Anyone who thinks differently is unlikely to be able to make any gun work properly.
Bear spray works very well.
The incident you describe sounds very unusual for a grizzly bear as they rarely stalk humans, I agree with you about being more scared of cougars because with a cougar you are more likley to be taken by suprise and not have time to react. WTF???
So, I am forced to ask: other than a couple of posters who seem to have found this thread too astonishing to continue to comment, have ANY of you actually ever seen a bear run? Do people really think anything other than a very well aimed CNS shot will reliably stop ANY animal in less than at least a few seconds?
"I have shot a few whitetails, muleys and one bull elk all with full frontal shots, not one animal even blinked. All of them dropped stone cold dead in their tracks without even a twitch." Then you better shoot some more, because that was just blind luck. No chest shot is a sure bet to drop anything "without even a twitch". Experience will prove it to you.
Just makes me want to go, Hmmmm.............. The BS in this type of thread, spread from complete inexperience, is almost depressing.
In a defensive shooting scenario against a large dangerous animal, a chest shot is a poor choice regardless of the gun carried. The point of shooting is to stop the animal's forward progression, thus you must break his engine (brain or spine) or his transmission (shoulders and hips). True. And shoulders and hips will be pointing in your direction and very hard to break from that angle.
Amusing, and not true- try spraying a bear with it and see what happens. It works extremely well. Even if you can find a video of a bear eating it, you might eat nuclear hot-hot sauce, but you're not about to put I up your nose and spray it in your eyes. True.
The trouble with bear defense threads is they always seem to be most interesting to the least experienced, and the least experienced always seem to have the most complex theories about how to deal with them.
Only a very well aimed shot will instantly stop a charge, and almost any normal deer gun with a good bullet will be sufficient, if you make that shot properly. Making the shot properly is extremely difficult. In a true charging situation, you will get only one. Anyone who thinks differently is unlikely to be able to make any gun work properly.
Bear spray works very well.
Do you have real life experience to back it up? this experience should include, but not limited to, a grizzly charging at you, bear spray used, bear running away.
I believe a bit of luck has a lot to do with the outcome of a bear attack.
I have read all of Sheldon's books and it sure left my jaw agape.
Not scared of fur, but I do have a great respect for it.
Exspecially the mighty ole grizz......
I have read all of Sheldon's books and it sure left my jaw agape.
Not scared of fur, but I do have a great respect for it.
Exspecially the mighty ole grizz......
Do you have any real life experience to prove I'm wrong? That should include, but not be limited to, a grizzly charging at you, bear spray used, bear continues and kills you.
That is how dumb some of this "discussion" is proving to be.
I am 54 years old I have been using the woods as my recreation area since I was 12 I have been in the "woods" in just about every part of this great nation, I have been as close to black bear as I am to my computer screen along rivers in BC and if I have a choice between bear spray and a heavy cal rifle or shotty I will take the guns every time. bear spray I am sure has its place just like pepper spray for police but police practice dispersing that stuff on a reg basis most people do not practice cause they are paying for it. what ever you are going to use practice drawing it on a regular basis and make it second nature. And for my money the Ontario black bear is the most unpredictable of all bear species in our country with the polar a close second. and young Cougars are the most unpredictable critter in the whole show.
My first objection to the "evidence from personal experience" argument is that anecdotal evidence is the LEAST reliable source of information whether you are talking science or forensics. Stories people tell are useless as evidence. Anyone who knows anything about gathering evidence as a scientist knows that fact. Demanding more stories is an absurd argument, and only proves my point of the sad level of discussion in this thread.
Every study done has proved that bear spray is far more likely to stop an attack than is the presence of any gun.
Google it, don't just read this stuff.
http://www.fws.gov/mountain-prairie/species/mammals/grizzly/bear spray.pdf
http://www.expeditionsalaska.com/ramblings/2008/03/27/bear-spray-effectiveness/
http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/story/2008/03/26/bearspray.html
http://adventure.howstuffworks.com/bear-spray2.htm
As a 20 second effort to do some research.
Every study done has proved that bear spray is far more likely to stop an attack than is the presence of any gun.
Google it, don't just read this stuff.
http://www.fws.gov/mountain-prairie/species/mammals/grizzly/bear spray.pdf
http://www.expeditionsalaska.com/ramblings/2008/03/27/bear-spray-effectiveness/
http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/story/2008/03/26/bearspray.html
http://adventure.howstuffworks.com/bear-spray2.htm
As a 20 second effort to do some research.
Alberta gunslinger: If you visit Smithers or Houston there are two large grizzlies on display. One in the Smithers Airport and one at the Houston Tourist Centre. The one in Houston was the father of the Smither's bear (DNA check) These bears were shot 20+ years after the attack on my wife's cousins but in the same general area. These bears were all very aggressive and were preying on cattle with great success. They were also huge, prime rib is a good source of protein they tell me. They had become acclimatized to people and were dangerous. Not your typical 'wild' bears anymore. The one in the Smither's airport was snared by the CO's, broke loose, charged them and they dropped it by both emptying their respective guns into it. They were very lucky. Grizzly's are probably at their most dangerous in a carcass defence situation. Terrain is also a factor; the situation in dense bush is different than above tree line etc. A note to the anti-spray people, do not discount the value of bear spray it has saved people's lives on a number of occasions. A gun is also valuable. Take both.
Boomer is exactly right. The only guaranteed shot to anchor any animal, is one that severs the spine or hits the brain.
In 2010, I shot a big black bear, at the pointblank distance of 28 paces. This bear was walking up the trail toward me, and was basically unawares of my presence.
I hit him with a chest shot, inside of the right shoulder, with a 400gr Hornady IB, from my .416RM. The bear reacted to the shot (as Gatehouse said), by running away. But he covered 80 yards before expiring.
So if he had been interested in attacking me, he certainly had enough energy left to reach me. And even with the huge impact of that 400gr slug, he did not go down, and the speed he moved at running away was remarkable.
The blood trail was very easy to follow!
The heart was grenaded...
I'll still always take a firearm over bear spray...
This might be a stupid question...I know a bears skull is incredibly hard but what about the eyes/nose/mouth?
Wouldn't some buckshot have a good chance of penetrating one of these "weak areas"?
What about with a quick follow-up shot?
With that said...I guess you could always go a quick follow up with a slug too but it's unlikely either shot would be "perfectly placed".
This is why we need explosive 12g rounds....obviously.
Wouldn't some buckshot have a good chance of penetrating one of these "weak areas"?
What about with a quick follow-up shot?
With that said...I guess you could always go a quick follow up with a slug too but it's unlikely either shot would be "perfectly placed".
This is why we need explosive 12g rounds....obviously.
The intention of the bayonet is to stab that son of a ##### if it charges you and your out of rounds or it closes in before you get enough shots off to put it down.
Drive that sucker in and blow the SOB's guts out, worst that can happen is you brave heart skewer the bastard in a vital organ, on a long rifle like a Mosin nagant or Lee Enfield it could keep you just out of swatting range of those nasty claws.
My 91/30's bayonets spike is 16 inches long, affixed the rifle is 5 feet 5 inches long........I'd much rather that then try and fend off it mauling my ass with my bare hands.
I highly doubt anyone has any plans of killing a bear solely with the bayonet.
