T97A Final Verdict?

xdmer

xdmer

CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Location
Back in Greater Vancouver
There hasn't been much new information published that I've seen. I'm asking here because I have a pre-order that I think will never be processed.

ftp://ftp.citt-tcce.gc.ca/english/appeals/decisions/ap2j081_e.pdf

Smells of utter BS.H:S:

Does anyone know if we're completely and utterly screwed with this dismissal?:eek:

Thanks
 
Wow, quite the read.

#1: the type 97 is a full auto firearm, with a few bits removed.

#2: Canada Ammo threw the sks and 10/22 under the bus to try to sway the appeal their way. Un-cool. Not appropriate at all. " I may have been cheating on you honey, but look, John and Ted have been cheating too, and Bill did years ago! What's the big deal?"

Not cool.

#3: It's going to be hard to bring new guns to Canada.
 
You know what, the more I think about it, the angrier I am with CanadaAmmo's approach. Read this carefully, that is a scummy thing to do, and this from a guy that has many purchases from them, and a type 97 t-shirt. They straight up tried to show that the 10/22 and sks should fall under the same category in an attempt to save the appeal, and luckily, no-one was having it.

I'd like to hear a response from them on this, I'm choked.:mad:
 
Yeah, very risky way to go dragging other firearms into this. That said trying to beat these guys in basically impossible. You can go to CITT but the odds of you winning are basically zero. It is rigged against you and in favor of CBSA.
 
I would suggest that the fundamental problem was that the redesign of the mechanism was inadequate and superficial.
Perhaps the Chinese simply did not comprehend that it was not enough that the rifle be semi auto - that it had to be difficult to convert to full auto.
I do not think that the mention of the 10/22 and SKS was throwing them under the bus. I think it was an attempt to demonstrate a lack of consistancy in the application of the concept of convertability. Unfortunately, the T97A seems to be as easy to convert as a C1A1 was. No modification, just a simple block of improvised material. The 10/22 and SKS require addtional parts or other modifications, so the comparison failed.
It is unfortunate that someone did not carefully inspect the rifle, from the standpoint of ease of conversion before any reached Canada. If someone could have studied the thing from the standpoint of "OK, let's see if I can jigger this sucker", the whole issue could have been avoided.
Keep in mind that there are numerous examples of paramilitary autoloaders that have been approved for importation; there is not a blanket prohibition for importation of any and all firearms of this general type.
As far as the magazines go, a loose, removeable insert simply isn't going to make it.
 
I still feel it was unfair to mention other rifles in the same light. No doubt some libtards tooks those mentions to heart and could persue them further. Its just bad practice, like the fool who wrecked the whole semiauto sten thing and tried throwing other firearms under the bus. IMO the Hasselwander test is rigged in the RCMP's favour with its vague definitions that were simply argued in court.
(i) the goods must be capable of conversion with relative ease,
(ii) in a relatively short period of time, and
(iii) the parts required for conversion must be readily available
All three points are subject heavily to interpretation, very open for argument in court where the CBSA simply maintained that they followed these guidelines. Given the f**king retarded amount of time it takes firearms techs to get anything done, 1 month to convert the T97A to FA with a popsicle stick is remarkably fast. For someone at home its a long ass time. ###. ### as aids.
 
This decision was made quite a while ago.
It says the decision and reasons were released on July 7th, 2011.
I've read this here before.
 
shortyirish12 said:
So is there any chance of those fellas with pre orders getting there money back?
Click to expand...

They never paid for anything, unless this preorder worked different than all the others.

They just take your CC info ahead of time, and charge you when they actually are shipping the gun to you. If the guns never show up, or there is some other problem, you're not charged.
 
KeltecFan said:
This decision was made quite a while ago.
It says the decision and reasons were released on July 7th, 2011.
I've read this here before.
Click to expand...

I think you're thinking of the other case.

tiriaq said:
The issue is not convertability; it is ease of conversion.
Click to expand...

And the other 'minor' item with the 4,000 prohibited magazines that weren't pinned or welded... :nest:
 
First the decision was posted when it first came out and it can be found in the first stickie on the top of the section.

Secondly the RCMP did not convert the T97 into a full auto, they just jammed a foreign object into the action to cause a continues slamfire, yeah sure you can unload a 30 round mag in less than a second, but it is completely uncontrollable and useless!!

Everyone of us recognize slamfire is dangerous and anyone attempt it is just a future Darwin award winner, however to the anti it is all the reason they need to prohibit a firearm.
 
hbean said:
First the decision was posted when it first came out and it can be found in the first stickie on the top of the section.

Secondly the RCMP did not convert the T97 into a full auto, they just jammed a foreign object into the action to cause a continues slamfire, yeah sure you can unload a 30 round mag in less than a second, but it is completely uncontrollable and useless!!
Everyone of us recognize slamfire is dangerous and anyone attempt it is just a future Darwin award winner, however to the anti it is all the reason they need to prohibit a firearm.
Click to expand...



Do you know this to be a fact?

The legal definition of full auto is clear.

Reading the judgement, it is apparent that there was no challenge to the fact that the gun was converted using the technique demonstrated.
 
The question is now - if those rifles modified to the satisfaction of RCMP can they be imported again?
 
“automatic firearm” means a firearm that is capable of, or assembled or designed and manufactured with the capability of, discharging projectiles in rapid succession during one pressure of the trigger;

(c) an automatic firearm, whether or not it has been altered to discharge only one projectile with one pressure of the trigger, or
Click to expand...

Seems pretty cut and dry. The T97's are either full-autos or full-auto capable, which means they're prohibited. And even if they could be converted to semi-auto, they'd be converted autos - also prohibited. And the magazines are apparently not modified, either (no welds, pins or other permanent means to limit capacity).

So they can't come into the country or leave - which means they're headed for the smelter - so anyone who's still entertaining the prospect of actually owning one is deluding themselves... The only issue I see left is compensation (or lack thereof).
 
What was the disposition of the rifles and magazines?

As far as further alterations to those rifles is concerned, the rifles were ruled to be full auto. If they were reworked, they would be considered to be converted autos, and still prohibited.

If the design was redone, and made thoroughly semi auto, no doubt a specimen could be submitted for examination.
 
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