how to make shooting sports flourish?
- Thread starter bangbang
- Start date
For those complaining about the old boys clubs, how many of you have showed up at work bee's, changed out backstops, painted targets or benches, mowed grass etc at your local club.
I'm not defending anyone's behavior if it is less then polite and welcoming to new shooters, however I suspect at most clubs, those "old boys" do 95% of the work.
Now at my local ranges I have never found anyone to be anything but welcoming, however the old boys who make things happen will explain the range rules politely, and expect gun safety and expect you not to damage targets or target stands. Our ranges have pretty basic rules, so I'm not talking about a range nazi who is going to yell at you because your muzzle is 5 degrees from perfectly downrange. Our guys are also fairly accepting of minor mistakes if you are actually trying to do what your supposed to.
One range I belong to has a rule that all non break action guns are to be carried muzzle up. Carry it muzzle down, they will politely ask you to carry muzzle up, as that's the rule, even though what you are doing is safe. Carry it like a suitcase, waving it at everyone, and you won't get many chances to fix that behavior.
Anyway I'm getting off my point, and that was, I wonder how many of you who are active shooters but complain about the old boys, actually put in the work at the range that they do? A lot of ranges would just fall into disrepair and close up if it wasn't for the "old boys" everyone in here seems to bash on. Or maybe I just don't have the same definition of "old boys" that the rest do, because honestly, I don't see much of the behavior you guys talk about.
I'm not defending anyone's behavior if it is less then polite and welcoming to new shooters, however I suspect at most clubs, those "old boys" do 95% of the work.
Now at my local ranges I have never found anyone to be anything but welcoming, however the old boys who make things happen will explain the range rules politely, and expect gun safety and expect you not to damage targets or target stands. Our ranges have pretty basic rules, so I'm not talking about a range nazi who is going to yell at you because your muzzle is 5 degrees from perfectly downrange. Our guys are also fairly accepting of minor mistakes if you are actually trying to do what your supposed to.
One range I belong to has a rule that all non break action guns are to be carried muzzle up. Carry it muzzle down, they will politely ask you to carry muzzle up, as that's the rule, even though what you are doing is safe. Carry it like a suitcase, waving it at everyone, and you won't get many chances to fix that behavior.
Anyway I'm getting off my point, and that was, I wonder how many of you who are active shooters but complain about the old boys, actually put in the work at the range that they do? A lot of ranges would just fall into disrepair and close up if it wasn't for the "old boys" everyone in here seems to bash on. Or maybe I just don't have the same definition of "old boys" that the rest do, because honestly, I don't see much of the behavior you guys talk about.
The sport is in all fairness, 100 % out of the publics eye. Nobody talks about them, tv shows about them really don't exist. They are even in the Olympics and yet with all the tv coverage you would have never known.
To many people associate firearms with bad things and we need to present them for what they are. I try to take people who have never shot anything or even held a firearm to my local range and show them the FUN of shooting. I have them shoot everything from a 22 to a 30-06 rifle and a 12 gauge shotgun. They all walk away with a total new respect and liking for what they have just experienced. We need to expose people to the sports and not just talk about it. Until people get to hold the firearm, learn all the safety issues, fire the firearms under controlled supervision and see what it is all about, nothing will change, sad to say !
Work. It takes work every day. There are no quick fixes or gimmicks. It takes work to keep a club clean and maintained so it's a place people are impressed with and want to come back. It takes work to maintain the equipment so people can shoot effectively and the club can make money. It takes work to make sure new comers are properly inducted and made welcome. It takes work to promote the club and the sport. It takes work to do the public relations to ensure you are seen as a good neighbor and a valued part of the community at large. It takes work to run shoots, company days, charity events and clinics.
If I could make a few simple recommendations it would be:
1. Keep your club neat, clean and well maintained. It says something about the kind of people that shoot there.
2. Before a newcomer leaves your club, thank them for coming and invite them back.
3. Ask questions about how things could be improved, and actively listen.
4. Make sure safety is always the #1 priority.
5. Be inclusive. Make it a point to shoot with different people. No one likes cliques.
If I could make a few simple recommendations it would be:
1. Keep your club neat, clean and well maintained. It says something about the kind of people that shoot there.
2. Before a newcomer leaves your club, thank them for coming and invite them back.
3. Ask questions about how things could be improved, and actively listen.
4. Make sure safety is always the #1 priority.
5. Be inclusive. Make it a point to shoot with different people. No one likes cliques.
It's true that the public only has a steady diet of people using guns as weapons, usually inappropriately on TV, and the news services only report bad events with guns. There is little other information every portrayed. My answer is simply that we have to rely on word of mouth and advertising we are willing to pay for ourselves. So, we all have to be good representatives for our sport in many ways and we have to support it financially. The second issue concerning the "old boy network" is that the people that are stuck with the work often don't know how to solicit help or how to work effectively with volunteers. I recall being on a board of a fairly large club years ago and the usual comments were being made about people not doing anything. Just for the heck of it I decided to get the membership list and phone individual members to help with the annual range cleanup. (Note: A specific job, on a specific date with a personal approach to the individual members.) I phoned 23 guys and 21 showed up. Well, one weather prediction doesn't make a weatherman, but it has been my experience over the years that most people want to help if approached in the right way and most clubs could do a lot in this area. Remember too that volunteers are different than paid employees and they have to be approached differently if you want to be effective...moralizing and whining doesn't help. So it goes...
BCFred, you make a great point. I have sat around and complained about a lack of help, but as I've become President of many organizations, some shooting related, some not, I've learned I just can't do it myself, so I have to delegate. In doing so I've learned that lots of people are willing to help if you tell them what to do. Particularly a short term job, people don't want to be responsible for anything or have to make decisions. They won't look after membership, but they will work the table at the gun show selling memberships for 1 shift, or even 1 whole day.
Even just sitting around the range, I've gone to refill bird houses, and if you just go do it, maybe a couple guys will help pack birds around. But ask the guys sitting on the veranda for help, and pretty soon you have 6-8 guys doing what you asked, and you can be doing something else that needs done.
For the guys that are used to seeing things that need done, and just doing it, it's annoying to watch guys sit around, or have to ask for help. However one has to get past that fact, realize they won't just do it, break down and ask for help. It's incredible how much help is out there if you ask, but it's a hard lesson for those used to just doing things to learn, myself included.
One more thing I've learned, from both the volunteer and the leader side, if your asking for help, be around to give directions. You don't have to be doing anything, but you have to be available. I learned this putting on a local gun show, I'm the guy organizing it, so I know what needs done. However I have 10-20 volunteers running around, and they are looking for things to do, but don't know what that is. It's not my job to go set up tables, run for more stamps, etc. My job is to be available to those 10-20 guys so that they can ask directions and keep doing their jobs. 4 guys setting up tables where I want them and 1 running an errand, is way more productive then 5 guys wondering where to put tables while I'm off running an errand.
I sometimes feel guilty at the end of the weekend, because I was there 24 hours a day for 3 days, but didn't really do anything. However I've been a volunteer trying to do something when the person in charge is gone, and not there to tell me how they want it, and that is very frustrating as a volunteer.
Even just sitting around the range, I've gone to refill bird houses, and if you just go do it, maybe a couple guys will help pack birds around. But ask the guys sitting on the veranda for help, and pretty soon you have 6-8 guys doing what you asked, and you can be doing something else that needs done.
For the guys that are used to seeing things that need done, and just doing it, it's annoying to watch guys sit around, or have to ask for help. However one has to get past that fact, realize they won't just do it, break down and ask for help. It's incredible how much help is out there if you ask, but it's a hard lesson for those used to just doing things to learn, myself included.
One more thing I've learned, from both the volunteer and the leader side, if your asking for help, be around to give directions. You don't have to be doing anything, but you have to be available. I learned this putting on a local gun show, I'm the guy organizing it, so I know what needs done. However I have 10-20 volunteers running around, and they are looking for things to do, but don't know what that is. It's not my job to go set up tables, run for more stamps, etc. My job is to be available to those 10-20 guys so that they can ask directions and keep doing their jobs. 4 guys setting up tables where I want them and 1 running an errand, is way more productive then 5 guys wondering where to put tables while I'm off running an errand.
I sometimes feel guilty at the end of the weekend, because I was there 24 hours a day for 3 days, but didn't really do anything. However I've been a volunteer trying to do something when the person in charge is gone, and not there to tell me how they want it, and that is very frustrating as a volunteer.
Well, regardless of the cost, thats what it is.
There is another local club that charges just a touch more. But not much
We are all volunteer labourers. As previously stated by some one, we unload, carry, fill, clean up, etc everything. NO ONE IS PAID to do anything.
And its a small club. Yes we have other revenue streams - draws etc, but we do make money off the trap.
Regardless of that, I had a friend go to another club and they charged $10 round for birds only. Another club I went to it was $6.50 per 25....and I was carrying/loading etc so there was no paid trap help there either.
Charging a range fee for members to use the rifle range I think is another gouge. Especially when I have to take my turn being RO and acting as RO's you are not allowed to shoot....
Having grumpy people at the desk and guys who think they own the range sure doesnt help much and gouging kills it.
There is another local club that charges just a touch more. But not much
We are all volunteer labourers. As previously stated by some one, we unload, carry, fill, clean up, etc everything. NO ONE IS PAID to do anything.
And its a small club. Yes we have other revenue streams - draws etc, but we do make money off the trap.
Regardless of that, I had a friend go to another club and they charged $10 round for birds only. Another club I went to it was $6.50 per 25....and I was carrying/loading etc so there was no paid trap help there either.
Charging a range fee for members to use the rifle range I think is another gouge. Especially when I have to take my turn being RO and acting as RO's you are not allowed to shoot....
Having grumpy people at the desk and guys who think they own the range sure doesnt help much and gouging kills it.
I really like what you are saying Scar 270. Good point about being around to encourage and provide guideance. Another side of this is to make sure there is something for the person to do when they show up. It kind of hurts when you show up and there isn't anything for you to do. Sometimes people (I) hang back simply because they don't want to step on any toes or because they don't want to do things differently than the club (old guard) does them too. Another thing that has struck me in this same general area is that often the executives in our clubs don't approach people to shadow an executive position or to help with it. So, you have a hard working executive group that does a lot of things, but it has trouble when one of the old guard leaves and they are looking for a replacement. This kind of relates to your comment that people don't want to take responsibility. If an executive encourages people to help with a position they have at least one person that has a good idea what has to be done. So, maybe they will be a little less intimidated by the idea of stepping in and a little more likely to do it...even better if there are two or three. There is nothing worse than entering a position where one doesn't know what is going on. So, if information isn't available and there isn't any prior training, or a good reason to think there will be training, I simply won't do it and no sensible person would. I think one of the unhappiest times I ever had as a volunteer was taking on a position when the previous incumbent, who encouraged me to do it, held back critical information from me about developmental plans in the works. I kept trying to organize things and this terrible feeling about something being wrong and not knowing what continued to grow...until things came out a month or two later, of course...too late, the damage was done. I still don't understand how someone expects an organization to develop when behaving that way. (I guess this is still a sore point.
) Bottom line is you have to put time into your volunteers... I know executive members when they are doing their job are working hard, but they have to find the time to look at members that might be interested and move some experience their way and do as a recognized part of their responsibilities. Board training often helps with these issues...That is a good point about getting people to shadow a position so they can get comfortable with it before being tossed into it. You are right about needing something to do as well, if people show up to help, and there is nothing for them to do, they are unlikely to come back.
At the last youth shooting program I organized, in addition to shooting for prizes, I also ran a few demonstrations of different shooting disciplines, specifically IPSC, IDPA, and trap shooting.
We had about 25 kids in attendance with parents (both Moms and Dads), and I think it blew a lot of their minds away that there were shooting sports that involved shooting while moving or shooting at things that moved.
Too many shooters come off as crotchety old men, bad-ss mall ninja wannabes, stuck up veterans/servicemen, or crazy survivalists and I think publicly demonstrating that feeds into a negative stereotype about shooting sports that lead to their decline.
Regardless if you fall into any of these categories (I know I fit into 3 of them), don't act that way around new shooters, especially young or female ones - or you'll scare them away.
To the OP though - if you want shooting sports to grow, start appealing to kids and women. Simple as that. For me personally, my talking about my military service, competition abilities, and assortment of firearms, tactical gear, and super awesome ninja skills are limited, reserved, humble, and past tense. I never get into a discussion about any of those things - only casually mention a sentence, max, about any of them.
The emphasis on my interactions with new shooters is on stuff they can relate to, like video games (Call of Duty - for boys), My Little Pony (for boys, and occasionally girls), and my ineptitude as a father at understanding young girls (for girls).
For women, I am never boastful, flirtatious, or arrogant - I stay entirely focused on being safe, but considerate of their abilities as shooters (whether new or old) and focusing on making sure they have fun.
It also helps to have age and gender appropriate trivia stories about shooting or guns to share.
We had about 25 kids in attendance with parents (both Moms and Dads), and I think it blew a lot of their minds away that there were shooting sports that involved shooting while moving or shooting at things that moved.
Too many shooters come off as crotchety old men, bad-ss mall ninja wannabes, stuck up veterans/servicemen, or crazy survivalists and I think publicly demonstrating that feeds into a negative stereotype about shooting sports that lead to their decline.
Regardless if you fall into any of these categories (I know I fit into 3 of them), don't act that way around new shooters, especially young or female ones - or you'll scare them away.
To the OP though - if you want shooting sports to grow, start appealing to kids and women. Simple as that. For me personally, my talking about my military service, competition abilities, and assortment of firearms, tactical gear, and super awesome ninja skills are limited, reserved, humble, and past tense. I never get into a discussion about any of those things - only casually mention a sentence, max, about any of them.
The emphasis on my interactions with new shooters is on stuff they can relate to, like video games (Call of Duty - for boys), My Little Pony (for boys, and occasionally girls), and my ineptitude as a father at understanding young girls (for girls).
For women, I am never boastful, flirtatious, or arrogant - I stay entirely focused on being safe, but considerate of their abilities as shooters (whether new or old) and focusing on making sure they have fun.
It also helps to have age and gender appropriate trivia stories about shooting or guns to share.
I disagree with the women and kids as a target audience. The majority of women could care less about shooting. The majority that are into the sport are doing it in support of a spouse or loved one.
The same with children - most are coaxed into it if a parent, uncle, older sibling is doing it. Kids don't get into it on their own.
I'm not sure why the push from some to change or modify the demographic - I suspect they at heart have issue with it being lop-sided and are overly sensitive to it, the same way they are overly sensitive to an individual's disposition- guess what, there are grumpy, stuck-up, self absorbed people in every sport and in every walk of life.
Shooting as a sport is time consuming and rather expensive (sure lots of things are, and are more expensive than shooting sports, but it still isn't cheap), making the target still a younger to middle aged man with reasonable disposable income.
Appeal to all within the target group by having open, accepting clubs who are ok with competitors/matches and casual shooters alike and you will grow the club sizes. The target audience will then start bringing their sons, daughters, nieces and nephews, spouses, girlfriends and sisters shooting.
Even still, it is very unlikely the shooting sports will ever regain the popularity it enjoyed from the later 1800s to the 1950s - those days are done and dusted.
The same with children - most are coaxed into it if a parent, uncle, older sibling is doing it. Kids don't get into it on their own.
I'm not sure why the push from some to change or modify the demographic - I suspect they at heart have issue with it being lop-sided and are overly sensitive to it, the same way they are overly sensitive to an individual's disposition- guess what, there are grumpy, stuck-up, self absorbed people in every sport and in every walk of life.
Shooting as a sport is time consuming and rather expensive (sure lots of things are, and are more expensive than shooting sports, but it still isn't cheap), making the target still a younger to middle aged man with reasonable disposable income.
Appeal to all within the target group by having open, accepting clubs who are ok with competitors/matches and casual shooters alike and you will grow the club sizes. The target audience will then start bringing their sons, daughters, nieces and nephews, spouses, girlfriends and sisters shooting.
Even still, it is very unlikely the shooting sports will ever regain the popularity it enjoyed from the later 1800s to the 1950s - those days are done and dusted.
You might be right concerning the demographic. One good thing that comes out of thinking about the demographic and being concerned about it, however, is that it spurs effort to make groups like women and children comfortable. It's important that these groups be comfortable and that there is support for newbies of all ages and types as well as for the people that bring them out. I think you're spot on that the shooting sports will never be as popular as they were in the 1800s to 1950s. For one thing there are many more options available to people today when they want food, recreation and entertainment.
There needs to be a focus on that demographic, as those groups that oppose even the responsible use of firearms certainly focus on those demographics. We need to be able to de-bunk the propaganda being taught in the schools and in the media. If I can get a lady or a young person out to the range and change their perception of the sport and firearms, then thats a victory, regardless of whether they ever take up the sport. Perception is reality, so changing the perception is the battle.
I think the point you are making is interesting and a very important one, i.e. that we should focus on "...a younger to middle aged man..." as a demographic. I didn't think of this point myself and your view has forced me to pause an think. My initial reaction was to roll right over and agree completely. In fact, I'm still generating reasons it is a valid point of view because there are so many. Like I said "...you might be right..."
. Wish I could provide more constructive material, but going into a long trance when I run into a view worth considering is something I'm used to. So, thanks...I think... FredI agree it's important to introduce women and kids to shooting. I teach a 4H firearms program, and I can pretty much guarantee non of those kids will ever support anti gun legislation. Even people you take to the range once or twice who have a good time and see firearms being used safely are unlikely to ever support anti gun legislation.
However if your trying to grow your club and your sport, as far as shooters on the range, as opposed to votes in the ballot box, you need to focus on those with the time, inclination, and pocket book to do what we do. I am sure I will lose my 4H kids from the shooting sports for 10-20 years when they graduate, but I hope they will come back to it someday.
The reason the range tends to be middle aged to older men, is because they have the time, inclination and pocket book to do it. I see a lot of people at my range, who have been shooters all their lives to some extent, becoming much more active as they get into their mid 30's, their kids are older, they have good paying jobs etc that allow them to do this. When your 20 something most men are either chasing women, or chasing toddlers. Those I see with the inclination and the money, usually don't have the time, because they work long hours, and spend their time with their family. Those who have the time off, and the inclination, often don't make the wages necessary, especially if they are trying to set up a house and young family.
I really can't understand why women don't shoot in larger numbers, I've rarely if ever got a women of any age to the range who didn't have a great time. Yet they just don't seem motivated to come out more then a couple times a year. One common factor I hear is that they think everyone is watching them, and they don't think they are good enough. However they will never get any good if they won't come out and shoot, and at our clays ranges, their are certain times where that is shot, you can't always just go out any time and do that 1 on 1.
The biggest roadblock I see to the clay sports in general is ego! Too many people think they should be great shots because they've hunted birds since they were 2. They come out and don't shoot as well as the regulars and are upset or embarrassed, they don't seem to realize that the regulars shoot more shells in a month then they have shot in their entire life. Even if you explain it they don't seem to get it, they think they should just naturally be able to hit most of them, with no training and no practice. Often guys have shot some clays in the back yard off a hand thrower, or foot trap, and when they shoot 16 yard regulation trap it is very humbling for them, so instead of learning to shoot, they go back to their backyard and stay there.
The demographic I see most likely to take up clays, and stick around, are the 30-45 year old males with a good job, and a real competitive streak, who are willing to do what it takes to become a good shot. If they don't have that self drive, no matter how many times you drag them out, if you are not there prodding them, they won't keep coming.
However if your trying to grow your club and your sport, as far as shooters on the range, as opposed to votes in the ballot box, you need to focus on those with the time, inclination, and pocket book to do what we do. I am sure I will lose my 4H kids from the shooting sports for 10-20 years when they graduate, but I hope they will come back to it someday.
The reason the range tends to be middle aged to older men, is because they have the time, inclination and pocket book to do it. I see a lot of people at my range, who have been shooters all their lives to some extent, becoming much more active as they get into their mid 30's, their kids are older, they have good paying jobs etc that allow them to do this. When your 20 something most men are either chasing women, or chasing toddlers. Those I see with the inclination and the money, usually don't have the time, because they work long hours, and spend their time with their family. Those who have the time off, and the inclination, often don't make the wages necessary, especially if they are trying to set up a house and young family.
I really can't understand why women don't shoot in larger numbers, I've rarely if ever got a women of any age to the range who didn't have a great time. Yet they just don't seem motivated to come out more then a couple times a year. One common factor I hear is that they think everyone is watching them, and they don't think they are good enough. However they will never get any good if they won't come out and shoot, and at our clays ranges, their are certain times where that is shot, you can't always just go out any time and do that 1 on 1.
The biggest roadblock I see to the clay sports in general is ego! Too many people think they should be great shots because they've hunted birds since they were 2. They come out and don't shoot as well as the regulars and are upset or embarrassed, they don't seem to realize that the regulars shoot more shells in a month then they have shot in their entire life. Even if you explain it they don't seem to get it, they think they should just naturally be able to hit most of them, with no training and no practice. Often guys have shot some clays in the back yard off a hand thrower, or foot trap, and when they shoot 16 yard regulation trap it is very humbling for them, so instead of learning to shoot, they go back to their backyard and stay there.
The demographic I see most likely to take up clays, and stick around, are the 30-45 year old males with a good job, and a real competitive streak, who are willing to do what it takes to become a good shot. If they don't have that self drive, no matter how many times you drag them out, if you are not there prodding them, they won't keep coming.
Just rereading some of this, and BCFred makes an interesting point:
We are ultimately competing for the entertainment dollars people have. Food is a big factor in that, keep people well fed and watered, and they are happy and enjoying themselves. We have people stop by our range often just for a burger or a coffee and a visit. You need that atmosphere to attract people and keep them around. I often think the biggest reason we can't keep up with golf for the local recreation dollars is a matter of booze. It's sad, but many people are not interested in a sport where they can't drink. Most ranges I belong to allow you to drink all you want once the guns are put away for the day, but it's not the same as the golf course where they keep delivering it to you as you play your round. I'm not suggesting we allow people to drink and shoot by any means, but I feel it's a factor that costs our sport potential participants.
Being at the range needs to be an enjoyable experience from start to finish for everyone if we want to keep people coming. We are in the entertainment industry, so we have to entertain people.
Another factor is our sport doesn't really have different levels of competition. Sure their are classes for sporting clays and trap, but a brand new shooter might still be on the same squad, shooting the same targets as a national champion. Again with the ego thing, but because we don't have different levels of competition, new shooters don't realize that they are shooting with what would be considered pro's in any other sport. No would expect to be even close to Tiger Woods if he showed up at a local tournament, yet they expect to shoot scores close to our top athletes. No one expects the local rec hockey team to play at the same caliber as the oilers, but they expect their goose hunting buddies to compete with the top shots on the sporting clays course. Sadly I don't have a solution to this.
We are ultimately competing for the entertainment dollars people have. Food is a big factor in that, keep people well fed and watered, and they are happy and enjoying themselves. We have people stop by our range often just for a burger or a coffee and a visit. You need that atmosphere to attract people and keep them around. I often think the biggest reason we can't keep up with golf for the local recreation dollars is a matter of booze. It's sad, but many people are not interested in a sport where they can't drink. Most ranges I belong to allow you to drink all you want once the guns are put away for the day, but it's not the same as the golf course where they keep delivering it to you as you play your round. I'm not suggesting we allow people to drink and shoot by any means, but I feel it's a factor that costs our sport potential participants.
Being at the range needs to be an enjoyable experience from start to finish for everyone if we want to keep people coming. We are in the entertainment industry, so we have to entertain people.
Another factor is our sport doesn't really have different levels of competition. Sure their are classes for sporting clays and trap, but a brand new shooter might still be on the same squad, shooting the same targets as a national champion. Again with the ego thing, but because we don't have different levels of competition, new shooters don't realize that they are shooting with what would be considered pro's in any other sport. No would expect to be even close to Tiger Woods if he showed up at a local tournament, yet they expect to shoot scores close to our top athletes. No one expects the local rec hockey team to play at the same caliber as the oilers, but they expect their goose hunting buddies to compete with the top shots on the sporting clays course. Sadly I don't have a solution to this.
I will eliminate crotchety old, because I think you are the young dude who in past post said he worked in the camping department of WSS and was having trouble with an 870 express he bought from them? Since then you moved to TSE. How long were you a servicemen? Long enought to be a veteran?
I agree! I do not think we should target anyone and I especially do not think we should look for converts. I do think we should always be open to anyone interested or curious. I think we should always be open to oportunities to show our sport to anyone, including some who may be anti. When I get pushed on why I really like busting clay or whatever instead of trying to explain it is often easier to say, "I would be happy to show you".
goosegetter
Member
- Location
- south of Hamilton
ditto brads comments above, our club in southern ontario is booming but YOU must be prepared to put in the work, NOT , someone else!
