NavyShooter
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AR15/AR10/Black Rifle List (25-Dec Update)
- Thread starter blaxsun
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andrew3081
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LOL - I think you would get as many different answers to this questions as there are thread participants.
For example, reading your thread, I immediately thought - Which production time period for Bushmaster? They had some bad years, but there were very good production runs as well. Lately, for example, Bushmaster=DPMS=Remington as they are now all made by the same folks with the same parts.
I also would put Armalite in the Tier 2 bracket these days. They are using Aero Precision receivers and better quality parts now - they aren't the same Eagle Arms junk they used to be.
Based on the last tow rifles I owned, I would also now put DD down in tier 3 - the fit and finish on the rifles I had were atrocious. The Stag product was MUCH better fit and finished though both ran about the same. Spikes makes SOME models that could easily be in Tier 2.
I would put CORE15 next to NEA and Norc. I've only seen two, both were poorly assembled and one would not fire out of the box.
Is all this subjective? HELL YEAH! Not everyone's experience and viewpoint will match you list
One thing we CAN agree on though is that CF and US Gov contractors are all tier 1 as they build to the M16 TDP - no exceptions. In this category you missed FN.
Have you actually fired a Core15? or even handled one?
The fit and finish is SAME as the Windham Weaponry one I saw.
And as for shooting.....like any other AR15.
I would not put Core15 in the same tier as Norc and NEA...
blaxsun
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
The AR15 POF is, yes
I think that for theses purposes, it should reflect the models generally available to consumers. So CMMG as Tier 2?
Core15 has been moved back into Tier 3.
It's definitely subjective?
It's "definitive" in terms of listing everything, but subjective as to where everything is placed.Added.
Good idea, will do.
Tentatively added as Tier 3. Also added ATR as Tier 2.
At least you have a sense of humour this morning.
blaxsun
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
HK has an insane barrel life and uber-reliability, but beyond that the rail and other design elements are somewhat lacking (the extra weight is also something to consider, as well). As for LWRC, Knight and Noveske - they're all in the Tier 1 category because they offer superior barrels and new innovations.
blaxsun
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Tier 2.
Just wondering how you evaluated Motiuk? I've got one of their custom lowers and would say Tier 3 based on what I've seen (comparable to DPMS/RRA/etc.). Not as pretty overall as Tier 2 (or above), but everything fit the way it should, no crazy machining marks...just my opinion.
blaxsun
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
No, that's why I initially threw them in the bottom tier (figured someone with some actual firsthand knowledge would know more). Giving them a bump.
Although LWRC is a good company they are no where close to competing with HK416 variants... I think you need to write down what the tier system means to you in this thread... Also I think you should look at what HK offers exactly as of today because you are not completely up to date it seems, I don't see how they are lacking in anything really. Also when cutting corners on weight as you continuously mention, you have to ask yourself what benefits you are losing when doing so. Also why are you not putting other companies like DD in there in regards to there barrel making ability? does that not make them Tier 1? You have to add in specifics and really look a the criteria you think defines what Tier 1 or 2,3 or whatever really means.
Also on HK it is not just barrel life or uber-reliability but higher unmatched performance and superior accuracy as a whole. The ergonomics are just like any other AR and there own aftermarket parts match or exceed with the best of them in all regards...Also to keep in mind some of these specialty companies can only make so many rifles a year and many of them cannot manufacture the entire rifle, this is a fact. In truth a lot of all this stuff is all marketing and in many ways needed for very specific needs that are not relevant to the masses in civilian or MIL/LEO needs.
blaxsun
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Nope. The kid's been routinely coming in at around 4-5am to play musical beds. The night before he was adamant about having ice cream...
I'd be happy to include a pro/con ± list for each.
blaxsun
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Insofar as Tier 1 rifles are concerned, it's not just the quality and design - but innovation. I put LWRC in with KAC and Noveske because I felt they're reasonably approximate.
There's no argument that HK is at the top of the heap, but it loses some of the benefits without FA and suppression (this is, after all, a consumer tier). Let's also not forget that it comes with an insanely heavy hand guard and commercial tube.
There's not much point in getting into specifics with each tier, because this is only meant to be a "general" guide. Owners can and will have their own personal preferences based on their experiences. What's the difference between tiers? Generally, not much (and in some cases, negligible).
Will a Norc provide as much enjoyment as an HK - even though it's not necessarily as reliable? Probably - especially considering the price point.
Aprilia Man
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I concur with Leibermuster, there needs to be a tier above tier 1 or you have to better define how you are ranking these… You should have tiers 0, 1, 2, 3, 4.
Colt is arguably the standard, has always been considered a tier 1 rifle, and is forced to be made per the TDP. This does not mean that Colt is necessarily the best rifle or that there are not better rifles. Arguably rifles that have been made outside of the TDP to improve on the design should be considered higher in the ranking than Colt, if you think they deserve to be or not.
As you said the KAC offers superior barrels and new innovations, this is despite no short comings to Colt and the TDP, no? Arguably the same could be said about HK. Colt must get a zero in the innovations ranking, no?
I would also argue that LMT is as close to a Colt as you can get. Aside from tapper pins and parkerizing under the FSB they are pretty much exactly the same. Not to mention the LMT MRP is arguably an improvement. So why are they a whole tier off?
Now, I am looking at this in terms of design, build quality, reliability and accuracy in regards to what the platform was originally designed for using Colt as the sole benchmark. If you look at it more from a Canadian target shooting perspective you may put more weight in accuracy over reliability for instance… or if you use Norinco as a benchmark… etc… etc…
Colt is arguably the standard, has always been considered a tier 1 rifle, and is forced to be made per the TDP. This does not mean that Colt is necessarily the best rifle or that there are not better rifles. Arguably rifles that have been made outside of the TDP to improve on the design should be considered higher in the ranking than Colt, if you think they deserve to be or not.
As you said the KAC offers superior barrels and new innovations, this is despite no short comings to Colt and the TDP, no? Arguably the same could be said about HK. Colt must get a zero in the innovations ranking, no?
I would also argue that LMT is as close to a Colt as you can get. Aside from tapper pins and parkerizing under the FSB they are pretty much exactly the same. Not to mention the LMT MRP is arguably an improvement. So why are they a whole tier off?
Now, I am looking at this in terms of design, build quality, reliability and accuracy in regards to what the platform was originally designed for using Colt as the sole benchmark. If you look at it more from a Canadian target shooting perspective you may put more weight in accuracy over reliability for instance… or if you use Norinco as a benchmark… etc… etc…
