Bullpups - the Concept

I watched this yesterday in it's entirety, I definitely did not agree with James Yeager and his friends opinion that "Bullpups sucked" I found it really ignorant and very misinformed to be combined with a high level of ignorance as well. But I do admire his character in the sense of stating his opinion regardless..I'm very happy that you are showing the strengths and weakness of Bullpops because there is a lot of misnomers/bias being promoted by some of the industries lead trainers and Blackrifle icons out there.
 
Leibermuster said:
I watched this yesterday in it's entirety, I definitely did not agree with James Yeager and his friends opinion that "Bullpups sucked" I found it really ignorant and very misinformed to be combined with a high level of ignorance as well. But I do admire his character in the sense of stating his opinion regardless..I'm very happy that you are showing the strengths and weakness of Bullpops because there is a lot of misnomers/bias being promoted by some of the industries lead trainers and Blackrifle icons out there.
Click to expand...

JY's opinions are aggressive and comical but I personally think he's right on with the idea that the bullpup system is highly sub-optimal. When you get down to putting rounds down range with Tavors or AUGs It's just so bulky and akward. It's an infantry gun over a gunfighters gun. I think thats where JY's opinions come from. In a CQB environment they are kings. But outside of their compact stature there are almost no advantages. With the quality of SBR's coming out these days it's hard to really want to mess with all of your AR/AK ergonomics. This is all not including the P90 which I consider to be a sub-gun and not comparable to an AR or AUG.

The best testimony against AUG/bullpup was a mate of mine who had a 10 year career in the Aussie Army. He and most of the other guys hated the AUG. When he was accepted in to the Aus SAS and they got M4's was the best day of his career. You might not think that is something to be fussed about and that a poor craftsman blames his tools but this is a guy who has spent over 2 years collected on tour in firezones from east timor to Iraq/A-stan. And the one thing that becomes obvious only when you are being shot back at is that bull pups are fumbly and do not work easily under stress. Guys end up grabbing hot barrels with only their gloves on, having to visually find the mag well and other fun **** ups that dont count on the square range. The worst is apparently how the HUGE BULKY stock get caught on all your chest rig kit. Also, hot barrels seem to cause malfs in rifles [esp in 40'+ heat]. Fixing that **** in a bull pup is like doing surgery on a hamster. when you get a stuck casing it's not as easy as just finger banging the casing out.

And that's what prevented me from getting a tavor many years ago. But IRL if you just want a sick range puppy those things are funner than ****.

- chris
 
Great video, I'm on the fence about getting a Kel Tec RFB. The main hindrance isn't it being a bull pup, but what the accuracy is like out to 800m... and the cost. Which is why I will most likely not be buying one. I have seen a few reviews for the RFB saying sub-MOA, but many more saying 2-3 MOA. More than accurate enough for hunting, but I would like something for precision shooting as well.

Plus I haven't had the opportunity to touch one.

I do like the idea of being a little on the unconventional side, I could imagine the looks I would get if I came across some other hunters in the back 40 while carrying my RFB.
 
No fence sitting for me... My preference leans firmly towards the bullpup platform. From my Tavors to FS2K, I have no issue with the manipulation, and I fully appreciate the mass of the carbine being shifted from the nose to the rear - especially when holding unsupported for a protracted period of time. I've gone through the AR's, and have deployed with, instructed on, and owned several. Those days are past, and I'm more than happy with the rifles I have chosen. I'm also getting used to the strange looks I get at hunt camp when I bring out the "weird" guns...this will be the second season hunting with my RFB...fingers crossed its a successful one.

End of the day, I could give a flying. Foxtrot Uniform Charlie Kilo. About what people want to shoot - its a personal preference so my "whatever" meter is fully engaged. So shoot what you like as long as you like what you shoot...

Cheers M
 
Something not mentioned in the video, since the guy in living in USA;

Canadian firearms laws definitely favor the bull-pup design.
 
I have a Kel-Tec RFB that I bought last week. I brought it out for this video shoot however the rifle wasn't working properly. I have to send it back to Kel-Tec for warranty work.

The Tavor is coming to the US next year, or so IWI tells us. The rifle I got a hold of and shot was the preproduction prototype. I'm looking forward to it quite a bit.
 
For your Tavor reloads, engage the mag release with your strong hand by moving it back off the grip. Some can do it, some can't. This allows for quicker mag changes as you don't have to pull out the old mag.

To engage the bolt release, don't use your thumb, simply rock your hand back after you seat the mag.

I'm sure with more trigger time you'd have figured this out. Great platform.
 
MilitaryArms said:
I have a Kel-Tec RFB that I bought last week. I brought it out for this video shoot however the rifle wasn't working properly. I have to send it back to Kel-Tec for warranty work.

The Tavor is coming to the US next year, or so IWI tells us. The rifle I got a hold of and shot was the preproduction prototype. I'm looking forward to it quite a bit.
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I didnt realize iwi was making the american tavor as well. For whatever reason i stupidly assumed iwi sold the rights to a american company for manufacture. Your blog mentioned there would be differences between the canadian tavor and the american. Did you by any chance find out what they are?


Also in the blog it mentions that according to iwi you should leave converting the tavor to southpaw use to a armourer. That really inst the case. I was able to convert mine in about a hours time. I also have the mechanical skill level of a drunk monkey. If i can do it following basic instructions, then anyone can. All you need is the left handed bolt and a key for the barrel cam lock.
 
avocado said:
JY's opinions are aggressive and comical but I personally think he's right on with the idea that the bullpup system is highly sub-optimal. When you get down to putting rounds down range with Tavors or AUGs It's just so bulky and akward. It's an infantry gun over a gunfighters gun. I think thats where JY's opinions come from. In a CQB environment they are kings. But outside of their compact stature there are almost no advantages. With the quality of SBR's coming out these days it's hard to really want to mess with all of your AR/AK ergonomics. This is all not including the P90 which I consider to be a sub-gun and not comparable to an AR or AUG.

The best testimony against AUG/bullpup was a mate of mine who had a 10 year career in the Aussie Army. He and most of the other guys hated the AUG. When he was accepted in to the Aus SAS and they got M4's was the best day of his career. You might not think that is something to be fussed about and that a poor craftsman blames his tools but this is a guy who has spent over 2 years collected on tour in firezones from east timor to Iraq/A-stan. And the one thing that becomes obvious only when you are being shot back at is that bull pups are fumbly and do not work easily under stress. Guys end up grabbing hot barrels with only their gloves on, having to visually find the mag well and other fun **** ups that dont count on the square range. The worst is apparently how the HUGE BULKY stock get caught on all your chest rig kit. Also, hot barrels seem to cause malfs in rifles [esp in 40'+ heat]. Fixing that **** in a bull pup is like doing surgery on a hamster. when you get a stuck casing it's not as easy as just finger banging the casing out.

And that's what prevented me from getting a tavor many years ago. But IRL if you just want a sick range puppy those things are funner than ****.

- chris
Click to expand...


A great post that brings up another question. Both the Aussie SAS and British SAS run M4's, and both militaries run bullpup rifles as standard issue. That really says something. More to that point, what elite unit anywhere in the world(aside from Israeli Mossad and the like) actively choose bullpup rifles?

MA's videos are great, very clear and to the point. However, the donwfalls as mentioned are a step backwards in modern fighting rifle design. Again, the one downfall not mentioned which I believe is a big one, is the fixed LOP. For temperate climates that may not be such an issue. For cold weather climates where gear and clothing add up quickly, it surely is an issue. Lets not forget that everyone is built a little different, and one LOP does not fit all. The only advantage a bullpup offers is shorter OAL. This is only a benefit if you do a lot of CQB/confined space work. The beauty of the AR platform is its modularity. Less than a minute and you can have a 10" barrel, or a 7.5" or a 20". The length of an M4 be it legit 14.5" or civvie 16" is not excessively restrictive for indoor work. When it comes to home defense, the length should be no issue. Its your house, game it out and work the angles. For LEO/MIL who don't necessarily know the layout, a shorter and less cumbersome rifle is always a plus. That being said, the only really confined space is in a vehicle and there's no wonder solution for that.

TDC
 
Great video series, it has definitely made an impact in my purchasing decision process. I have always been curious about bull pups. You have done a great comparison of AR vs bull pup with regards to handling and manipulation, but is there a major difference of employment, ei use with bipods or high powered optics (more applicable to the RFB being a .308, but is there enough room for proper eye relief) or enough space for Red dot with magnifier, and the difference of immediate actions and stoppages.

I am eagerly awaiting your review of the RFB as I am looking to purchase a non-restricted, .308, semi-auto for both hunting and ipsc/tactical style matches. Right now XRC-M and RFB are topping the list.

Thanks for the excellent resource.

Jay
 
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avocado said:
JY's opinions are aggressive and comical but I personally think he's right on with the idea that the bullpup system is highly sub-optimal. When you get down to putting rounds down range with Tavors or AUGs It's just so bulky and akward. It's an infantry gun over a gunfighters gun. I think thats where JY's opinions come from. In a CQB environment they are kings. But outside of their compact stature there are almost no advantages. With the quality of SBR's coming out these days it's hard to really want to mess with all of your AR/AK ergonomics. This is all not including the P90 which I consider to be a sub-gun and not comparable to an AR or AUG.

The best testimony against AUG/bullpup was a mate of mine who had a 10 year career in the Aussie Army. He and most of the other guys hated the AUG. When he was accepted in to the Aus SAS and they got M4's was the best day of his career. You might not think that is something to be fussed about and that a poor craftsman blames his tools but this is a guy who has spent over 2 years collected on tour in firezones from east timor to Iraq/A-stan. And the one thing that becomes obvious only when you are being shot back at is that bull pups are fumbly and do not work easily under stress. Guys end up grabbing hot barrels with only their gloves on, having to visually find the mag well and other fun **** ups that dont count on the square range. The worst is apparently how the HUGE BULKY stock get caught on all your chest rig kit. Also, hot barrels seem to cause malfs in rifles [esp in 40'+ heat]. Fixing that **** in a bull pup is like doing surgery on a hamster. when you get a stuck casing it's not as easy as just finger banging the casing out.

And that's what prevented me from getting a tavor many years ago. But IRL if you just want a sick range puppy those things are funner than ****.

- chris
Click to expand...

TDC said:
A great post that brings up another question. Both the Aussie SAS and British SAS run M4's, and both militaries run bullpup rifles as standard issue. That really says something. More to that point, what elite unit anywhere in the world(aside from Israeli Mossad and the like) actively choose bullpup rifles?

MA's videos are great, very clear and to the point. However, the donwfalls as mentioned are a step backwards in modern fighting rifle design. Again, the one downfall not mentioned which I believe is a big one, is the fixed LOP. For temperate climates that may not be such an issue. For cold weather climates where gear and clothing add up quickly, it surely is an issue. Lets not forget that everyone is built a little different, and one LOP does not fit all. The only advantage a bullpup offers is shorter OAL. This is only a benefit if you do a lot of CQB/confined space work. The beauty of the AR platform is its modularity. Less than a minute and you can have a 10" barrel, or a 7.5" or a 20". The length of an M4 be it legit 14.5" or civvie 16" is not excessively restrictive for indoor work. When it comes to home defense, the length should be no issue. Its your house, game it out and work the angles. For LEO/MIL who don't necessarily know the layout, a shorter and less cumbersome rifle is always a plus. That being said, the only really confined space is in a vehicle and there's no wonder solution for that.

TDC
Click to expand...

As usual, another great video, very informative.

I completely agree with what is written above, it's good when people can share these opinions and not get flamed by people for it. I have always felt Bullpup's are as stated above an infantry gun over a gunfighters gun. In other words, I would love to carry one around all day, but would hate to get in a gun fight with one. Take it or leave it.

Edit: I once checked out a Tavor in the local shop, wow what a cool rifle, I thought I might buy it, and then I felt the trigger :eek: Are all bullpup's trigger's like that? In all honesty, I don't want to start an argument, but the Tavor's stock trigger was literally the worst trigger I have ever felt, an I am not exaggerating one bit. I hear the trigger cannot be adjusted, and really, it was just awful. They had two of them at the shop and I insisted on trying both of them because I thought something was wrong with the first one, I have never felt a trigger like that before.
 
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