Not sure if this OT or not, but I read that the Stoner weapons system was withdrawn from Vietnam after a LMG fell over in a boat carrying Navy Seals and it went off on full auto. Cost one Seal a finger, and that was enough for the Navy to get rid of it.
The old SMGs - did they fail often?
- Thread starter sulisa
- Start date
..... A folding stock variant was produced, and issued in Australia.. The AUSTEN. 'Used a copy of the German's forward folding stock and a pistol grip. The preferred weapon was actually the Australian designed, OWEN GUN, with the magazine being vertical and a forward pistol grip ( Sights being off set ) ..... David K
From Wiki:
"The first working prototype was chambered in 7.62x51mm NATO and completed in 1962.[3] It was designated the Stoner M69W (for no other reason than when turned upside down it reads the same, symbolizing Stoner's vision of a fully invertible receiver)."
Invertible Model numbers? I'm starting to see why they were called "Stoner" LOL
There's no such thing as Off-Topic when a bunch of guys get together to discuss guns
"The first working prototype was chambered in 7.62x51mm NATO and completed in 1962.[3] It was designated the Stoner M69W (for no other reason than when turned upside down it reads the same, symbolizing Stoner's vision of a fully invertible receiver)."
Invertible Model numbers? I'm starting to see why they were called "Stoner" LOL
There's no such thing as Off-Topic when a bunch of guys get together to discuss guns
This is a fun discussion.
If I could hijack really quickly (I know I'll get flamed for this) and forgive my ignorance, but is there such a thing as a SMG/LMG/full auto shoot/meet in Canada like Knob Creek in Kentucky? I realize all these types of firearms are prohib, but I've shot my fair share of prohibs. I simply wondered if there was still an option like this in Canada for the average, safe enthusiast (you'll notice I'm trying really hard not to sound like a redneck yahoo).
If I could hijack really quickly (I know I'll get flamed for this) and forgive my ignorance, but is there such a thing as a SMG/LMG/full auto shoot/meet in Canada like Knob Creek in Kentucky? I realize all these types of firearms are prohib, but I've shot my fair share of prohibs. I simply wondered if there was still an option like this in Canada for the average, safe enthusiast (you'll notice I'm trying really hard not to sound like a redneck yahoo).
Stoner built two basic SYSTEMS, the 62 in 7.62 NATO and the 63 in 5.56.
AFAIK, Stoners are still in the USN system. Spares are shop-made.
Sten Mark I had only the 'hook' safety-notch in the receiver. You pulled the Bolt back farther from its 'cocked' position, brought the handle up and hooked it into the receiver notch where the spring held it in position, quite solidly.
LATER Stens (Mark II, Mark III & suite) all had TWO safeties: the 'hook' and a 'lock-forward' safety. The bolt-handle had TWO circular depressions on it with the recoil spring bearing against. A smack on the bolt handle with the bolt forward would unseat the spring from the one depression and allow the bolt-handle to be pushed inward unti the other spring detent caught and held the handle in position. As the bolt-handle went all the way through the bolt, something had to happen to the OTHER end of the bolt-handle: it went through this hole in the receiver on the right side of the gun...... and locked the bolt forward. To fire the gun, you pulled the bolt-handle outward, then back, then pulled the trigger.
STEN did not have a firing-pin; it was a nub machined onto the face of the Bolt, rather than a separate part. When it hit the primer, it set the little thing off and it was backed up by the weight of the bolt (over a pound and a half), the pressure from that big .063"-diameter-wire spring and the VELOCITY of the bolt closing: a BIG whack.
If you check military (and commercial) 9mm ammo carefully, you will see that it ALL has the case-mouth squared-off. THAT is for the case to headspace and then stop in the barrel. The case goes into the chamber and STOPS, the bolt continues running forward and the firing-pin sets off the primer as the bolt still is moving forward: Advanced Primer Ignition, same as in an Oerlikon but with less parts.
MOST SMGs operate on Advanced Primer Ignition, the one WW2 gun which did not being the Reising, which locked its .45ACP round firmly in the Chamber before the firing-pin started forward. Firing in the Reising was effected by an axial hammer with a hole in the middle; the bolt had to be out-of-alignment with the hammer in order for the firing-pin to be struck. Being that the tail end of the bolt had only one direction to go (up), the bolt tail displaced vertically and the hammer was able to strike the firing-pin. Brilliant engineering with NO extra parts. BTW, Reisings were incredibly accurate because of their closed-bolt operation and long barrels. Mine would do 200-yard plates, 'way back when Free Canadians were allowed to take them out of the house.
AFAIK, Stoners are still in the USN system. Spares are shop-made.
Sten Mark I had only the 'hook' safety-notch in the receiver. You pulled the Bolt back farther from its 'cocked' position, brought the handle up and hooked it into the receiver notch where the spring held it in position, quite solidly.
LATER Stens (Mark II, Mark III & suite) all had TWO safeties: the 'hook' and a 'lock-forward' safety. The bolt-handle had TWO circular depressions on it with the recoil spring bearing against. A smack on the bolt handle with the bolt forward would unseat the spring from the one depression and allow the bolt-handle to be pushed inward unti the other spring detent caught and held the handle in position. As the bolt-handle went all the way through the bolt, something had to happen to the OTHER end of the bolt-handle: it went through this hole in the receiver on the right side of the gun...... and locked the bolt forward. To fire the gun, you pulled the bolt-handle outward, then back, then pulled the trigger.
STEN did not have a firing-pin; it was a nub machined onto the face of the Bolt, rather than a separate part. When it hit the primer, it set the little thing off and it was backed up by the weight of the bolt (over a pound and a half), the pressure from that big .063"-diameter-wire spring and the VELOCITY of the bolt closing: a BIG whack.
If you check military (and commercial) 9mm ammo carefully, you will see that it ALL has the case-mouth squared-off. THAT is for the case to headspace and then stop in the barrel. The case goes into the chamber and STOPS, the bolt continues running forward and the firing-pin sets off the primer as the bolt still is moving forward: Advanced Primer Ignition, same as in an Oerlikon but with less parts.
MOST SMGs operate on Advanced Primer Ignition, the one WW2 gun which did not being the Reising, which locked its .45ACP round firmly in the Chamber before the firing-pin started forward. Firing in the Reising was effected by an axial hammer with a hole in the middle; the bolt had to be out-of-alignment with the hammer in order for the firing-pin to be struck. Being that the tail end of the bolt had only one direction to go (up), the bolt tail displaced vertically and the hammer was able to strike the firing-pin. Brilliant engineering with NO extra parts. BTW, Reisings were incredibly accurate because of their closed-bolt operation and long barrels. Mine would do 200-yard plates, 'way back when Free Canadians were allowed to take them out of the house.
The locking bolt handle became standard with the Mk. V gun, and the design was easily retrofitted to all earlier Marks. Most guns were converted. There were two safer ways to carry an unaltered Sten: empty; and, loaded with the bolt back in the safety slot. If the gun was carried with a loaded magazine in place, and the bolt foreward, a bump or jar could result in a shot being fired. This was true for many of the earlier smgs, including the MP-38.
Easy enough to experiment with this, using dummy rounds. Insert a loaded mag, and give the gun a sharp jerk. The bolt will bounce. If the round did not feed, the gun would not have fired. If the gun is cocked, the round would not have fired. But if a round winds up in the chamber, there would have been a shot fired. The jolt has to be just rigtht, not too little, not too much.
Stens do require quality ammunition. When a round is fired, a lot of casing is protruding from the chamber, the feed ramp being a cone in the back end of the barrel. A funnel. If the cartridge does not have a thick, strong case, a blown head is a real possibility. (I can tell you from experience, the bang will get your attention!). The first 9mm ball obtained in quantity for use in Stens was Winchester. There were numerous examples of blown cases, until this ammunition was superceded.
Problem is, when a case head fails, there is a stoppage. There can also be a bullet lodged in the barrel. Operator performs the IA, clears the stoppage and fires. Barrel is bulged or burst.
Easy enough to experiment with this, using dummy rounds. Insert a loaded mag, and give the gun a sharp jerk. The bolt will bounce. If the round did not feed, the gun would not have fired. If the gun is cocked, the round would not have fired. But if a round winds up in the chamber, there would have been a shot fired. The jolt has to be just rigtht, not too little, not too much.
Stens do require quality ammunition. When a round is fired, a lot of casing is protruding from the chamber, the feed ramp being a cone in the back end of the barrel. A funnel. If the cartridge does not have a thick, strong case, a blown head is a real possibility. (I can tell you from experience, the bang will get your attention!). The first 9mm ball obtained in quantity for use in Stens was Winchester. There were numerous examples of blown cases, until this ammunition was superceded.
Problem is, when a case head fails, there is a stoppage. There can also be a bullet lodged in the barrel. Operator performs the IA, clears the stoppage and fires. Barrel is bulged or burst.
99.99 % of the Lanchesters were converted to Mk.I* status...no selector and FA only. They were a dream to fire due to their weight and looked mean as a mother in law with a Pat. 07 bayonet attached. The one I had access to, at one time, was Canadian marked with broad arrow C and came from the Naval arms depot in Halifax. The MP 28/2 was a carbon copy sans bayonet lug and a much better finish. The Lanchester Mk.1 sight was used on the DeLisle carbine before the later model sight, as per the PPSh41 was adapted. Two position only.
Lee Enfield
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
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Yes there used to be. The last one in Alberta was in the mid '90s.
From @'79-'96 there were 2 Full Auto shoots per year in Alberta.
1 at the Wardlow range in central Alberta.
1 at the CHAS range (from @'89 located near Genesee).
The MG owners had to take the Alberta CFO to court in the late 70s/early 80s to get that.
The SEALs continued to use the Stoner 63 well after Vietnam until they were replaced by the FN Minimi as the M249. My understanding is that they were well-liked, but with the SEAL teams being the sole end user, there just wasn't enough demand for Cadillac Gage to keep the production line open.
Lots of good info here:
http://home.comcast.net/~sfischer397/stoner/index.htm
There were FA shoots outside of Winnipeg in the 80's. The main problem with stens, lanchesters and sterlings is the magazine. if you had good condition, clean magazines the guns worked well. I found that the British sterling roller magazine better than the cdn one's as long as they were clean. Most of the FA sterling's here are British Mk4 L2A3's, with a few Canadian one's which all came surplus from the UK back in the day. Lever Arm's sold some semi-auto purpose built long barrel sterling's at one time along with the Armalite AR180 223's also made by sterling. That why you find 223 sterling magazine's, which don't work that well in some AR15's.
The method of ignition in the Sterling SMG, bu the use of a projecting integral 'firing pin-like protrusion', is called the 'advanced primer ignition'. The Sterling SMG was astonishly accurate, and we used to line up empty 9mm cases at 50m and knock them off a piece of wood on the range with single aimed shots.
Happy days, eh?
tac
Happy days, eh?
tac
I never saw a bad Sterling Mag in the British army. Half the High Power mags were bad, but the Sterling mags were first rate. I never had a stoppage on a Sterling, it was my personal weapon for ages.
Basically, all these simple SMGs are full automatic. Semi auto fires is arrived at by interrupting that. Some like the M3 grease gun don't even bother with that since the rate of fire is low enough you just tap the trigger. Pretty tough for a cartridge to fire unless it makes it into the barrel, since it has to line up with the depression that holds the firing pin.
Grizz
Some like the M3 grease gun don't even bother with that since the rate of fire is low enough you just tap the trigger. Pretty tough for a cartridge to fire unless it makes it into the barrel, since it has to line up with the depression that holds the firing pin. Grizz
I'm speaking of firing blanks but back in the late 70's we would get misfeeds if we tried loading the Canadian Sterling mags to full capacity. Generally we only loaded 28 rounds. Off hand I can't remember if this was an issue with 9mm Ball but I suspect we only loaded 28 when live firing too.
Good point, I think 30 was normal. I was stunned to read later on that capacity was 34, at the time I thought it was 32. 34 must have been tight.
My experience with the CF SMG "Stirling" is that it would double tap on semi, and getting yelled at on the range during basic for not following the range officer command for semi auto fire. He thought I had the selector on full auto. Same happened to others so it was not uncommon. Gripping the mag would cause stoppages. Also seen soldiers forget the stirling is fired from an open bolt and close the bolt only to fire a round.
supposedly one soldier was killed when he shot himself in the back of the head with one, it was slung on his back, bolt closed with a mag in and it went off as he jumped out of a truck
