375 or 458

Coincidentally, I used an unexpected Christmas bonus many years ago to buy a Brno ZKK 602 in .458 WM.
I dont ever expect to go hunting in Africa, but it is still a favourite of mine.
It is very accurate, and it certainly did flatten a black bear in a hurry.
 
Brybenn;

The 375 is a do-all cartridge where the 458 is much shorter range and more specialized in my opinion. I have both and many more in this catagory and for your needs I would highly recommend either the .375 or .416. They will do anything in NA and most anything in Africa. I personally don't like the 458 WM and find it very limited in it's capabilities but the .375s and .416s are quite universal in their realm. Forget all the paper ballistics and take it from someone who's been there and done that, the .375 H+H is a hard cartridge to beat, up to and including elephant. Certaintly buffalo are no contest to the H+H in the hands of a man who can shoot it. And it is so much easier to become proficient with than the .458 variants. I have fired thousands of rounds of .375 H+H, .416 Taylor, Rigby and Rem, and .458 WM, Lott and Ackley. Of all of these cartridges I would recommend the .416 Taylor or Rem above all else for ease of shooting, external ballistics, and all around kill anything cartridges. The .375s are next by a small margin as all around calibers and the .458s and .470s are last.
 
I own and like both the .375 and the .458 bore rifles. But the .375 is a better general purpose hunting cartridge, where to me the .458, (referring to the .458 Winchester) is more of a niche cartridge, better suited to the protection role then the purveying role. While it can be done, to shoot the .458 out to a quarter mile requires much better range and wind doping, while the .375 when loaded with normal weight pointed bullets usually shoots with a trajectory similar to that of a .30/06. A .375 loaded with a single bullet weight, can kill an antelope the size of a jackrabbit, allowing you to eat up to the bullet hole, thanks to bullet jackets intended to open on much heavier- denser game, or it can be used to kill a trophy elephant. Thus, the .375 is the ultimate hunter's rifle.

The .458 shines on dangerous game (10,000 elephant croppers can't be wrong) and it's ballistics predate the cartridge by 70 years or more. It makes an excellent timber rifle, and would shine on elk, moose or big bears. But easy shooting ends at 200 yards; with a 150 yard zero, my .458 prints a foot low at 200. If you have a general purpose big game rifle already, the .458 despite its detractors, is an excellent choice, being neither terribly abusive to shoot (once you are used to powerful rifles) nor terribly expensive to shoot (compared to say a .460 Weatherby or one of the Nitro Express cartridges). The deep boom and 40 degree muzzle rise is pleasing to the senses.

Edited to add, the .416s sort of splits the difference, and IMHO are the largest cartridges (specifically the big cased examples) that are useful in the general purpose role.
 
Having had a 550 in 375hh and the action being a huge as it is, the small 458wm is almost wasted on it. No need for an action that big for a "small" in length 458wma. Get it punched to 458 Lott imo or go 375hh if you think you need a heavy rifle like that for a not very heavy recoiling 375.
 
brybenn said:
A 458wm shooting 350gr bullets at 2200fps is to me shootable and hell for any bear. A big step up over my 4570.
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350 @ 2200 fps is not unreasonable in a 45-70, unless your rifle action itself is not up to the pressures. A plain jane Marlin 1895 can do this. There's published data for 400 @ 2000 fps as well. Not that this makes it a .458 by any means.
 
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c-fbmi said:
Brybenn;

The 375 is a do-all cartridge where the 458 is much shorter range and more specialized in my opinion. I have both and many more in this catagory and for your needs I would highly recommend either the .375 or .416. They will do anything in NA and most anything in Africa. I personally don't like the 458 WM and find it very limited in it's capabilities but the .375s and .416s are quite universal in their realm. Forget all the paper ballistics and take it from someone who's been there and done that, the .375 H+H is a hard cartridge to beat, up to and including elephant. Certaintly buffalo are no contest to the H+H in the hands of a man who can shoot it. And it is so much easier to become proficient with than the .458 variants. I have fired thousands of rounds of .375 H+H, .416 Taylor, Rigby and Rem, and .458 WM, Lott and Ackley. Of all of these cartridges I would recommend the .416 Taylor or Rem above all else for ease of shooting, external ballistics, and all around kill anything cartridges. The .375s are next by a small margin as all around calibers and the .458s and .470s are last.
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I have the same mindset as the underlined sentences above... the .416 Remington is a great cartridge - very versatile.
 
Kevan said:
LOL ! You are too funny, I have one of those also... notice I never mentioned that ?
This is an excellent thread and I do not want to side-track it, but when are you going to transfer down here so we can do some hunting together Mr. Big Ugly Man ??

Sorry Brybenn... :)
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Lower Mainland? Me? Goodness man, think of the children! When are you going to move up here to God's County and...oh yeah, nevermind. Can a guy get hunterhosted in BC for bear? Still haven't hunted blackness. Well, not successfully.
 
Northman999 said:
350 @ 2200 fps is not unreasonable in a 45-70, unless your rifle action itself is not up to the pressures. A plain jane Marlin 1895 can do this. There's published data for 400 @ 2000 fps as well. Not that this makes it a .458 by any means.
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My 4570 double is rated at 28 000cup and it weighs 6 3/4lbs with scope. So I can't push it that hard. Not that I need to. There's just something about the 458wm that draws me. Maybe I've been looking at the loaded round on my desk for to long. In ontario a shot past 200 yards is unlikely. The way I hunt (in the thick stuff) 75yards would be a far shot. I love my little double but I want something that can really step up the power
Lots of valid points in this thread. The 416 rigby has also intrigued me as well
I've read a lot of craig boddingtons articals on the various 416s as well as john pondoro taylors book of african cartridges
As a side note I find it interesting about half say 458 is a specialty round and limited while the other half say make it a Lott for extra hitting power.
 
To each his own. The .375 wins hands down. ;)

For me, it's about recoil.
The power to do most any job is there in all of cals. discussed ^.
I really do enjoy getting shoved about by the big bores, but, the limiting factor for real world results is .... can I go prone and still hit the mark?.
The rather heavy 602 .375H&H is the most rifle this fellow can handle from flat on his belly.
And, it does shoot so well.
Out to 350+ yards, it's not that difficult to put 'em in there.

At shorter ranges, offhand, kneeling, or sitting will get the job done.
The most important thing is ...
never do I feel that pre-flinch urge to shut the eyes and yank on the trigger.

To each his own. :cheers:
 
Gatehouse said:
375 H&H is a more versatile cartridge than a .458WM, especially if you are mostly going to use it in north america.
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More versatile ... yes.
Easier to shoot/less recoil ... yes.
Cheaper to load for ... yes.
Easier to sell ... yes.
Better sellection of rifles ... yes.

Gatehouse said:
The .375 Ruger is the superior .375 cartridge, of course, but nothing really wrong with the H&H.
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Superior ... no.
 
SuperCub said:
More versatile ... yes. Really ? Ever try loading shot loads in a 375 anything ? Or cast bullets ?
Easier to shoot/less recoil ... yes. Agreed ... especially with full power loads, cast are a different story..
Cheaper to load for ... yes. Not really, components are similar in cost, cast loads cut the cost immensly..
Easier to sell ... yes. Agreed, much easier..
Better sellection of rifles ... yes. Agreed, much better..


Superior ... no.
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Agreed, but nonetheless a 458 can be a ton of fun.
I'm not trying to bad-mouth the 375, I love the two I have and hunt a lot with them, but my pension checque limits my purchasing power for components and the 458 lets me shoot all winter with a very modest outlay... just my findings.
 
Kevan said:
Agreed, but nonetheless a 458 can be a ton of fun.
I'm not trying to bad-mouth the 375, I love the two I have and hunt a lot with them, but my pension checque limits my purchasing power for components and the 458 lets me shoot all winter with a very modest outlay... just my findings.
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Hey Kevan, is there a reason you can't do all the same for the 375, you know like cast bullets, reduced loads etc?
 
c-fbmi said:
Hey Kevan, is there a reason you can't do all the same for the 375, you know like cast bullets, reduced loads etc?
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No probably not, but I have two 45-70s, a 45-120 Shiloh, a 450 / 348 Ackley Imp., and of course the 458, so in the course of feeding all those I have at least a dozen .458 cal. bullet moulds, all of which the old 458 shoots very well.
Don't get me wrong here, I have owned 375s since the 1960s and put tons of meat in the freezer... they are and always will be awesome and I will never be without my H&H... carried it for 10 straight days this past Fall.
I simply find my 458 to be very cheap to shoot... heck, a can of 3031 and a pail of wheel weights makes for a winter of shooting thus saving the big jacketed bullets for the real thing...
And for hunting within my comfort zone it works very well..
 
Kevan said:
Agreed, but nonetheless a 458 can be a ton of fun.
I'm not trying to bad-mouth the 375, I love the two I have and hunt a lot with them, but my pension checque limits my purchasing power for components and the 458 lets me shoot all winter with a very modest outlay... just my findings.
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I wasn't thinking about cast bullets when I said that. What you say makes a lot of sense.

I guess it really depends on that too.
 
SuperCub said:
I wasn't thinking about cast bullets when I said that. What you say makes a lot of sense.

I guess it really depends on that too.
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Actually, depending on what you are hunting and the distance involved cast bullets can perform very well.
A few years ago I was hunting Mule Deer and had a rare opportunity to fill a Moose tag and so the same 490 gr. GC bullet dropped a nice young Bull. It wasn't a long shot 70 + yds. if I recall, but it did the job.
 
Can't go wrong with a .375 H&H. Hard-hitting, decent range, easiest (of the bunch) on the shoulder.

350grBBSagainstGiraffehide.jpg

Recovered 350 grain Barnes Banded Solid against a cross-section of giraffe hide, 2011 (.375 H&H Ruger M77 RSM Safari Magnum)

Rhino.jpg

(L) 380 grain South African "Rhino" bullet recovered from a giraffe, 2011 (Ruger M77 RSM Safari Magnum). (R) the same bullet, unfired.

The .416 Rigby or 450/400 3" NE would be my second choice...
 
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