Bland&sons 16 gauge side by side

[NShunter1254]

Can anyone give me more information on this old 16 gauge shotgun?
If you need more pictures let me know
Marked Bland&sons on reciever
marked tb&s under forearm
also on barrel under forearm is skelp, and J.A.R also looks like J.M

serial 20899

 

[tiriaq]

Thomas Bland made good guns. Yours looks as if it needs some respectful TLC.

 

[gunsaholic]

Here is a little info off the net:



The number of gunmakers who are still in business today and who can trace their ancestry to the days of the muzzleloader are very few indeed and rather far between. One such firm is Thomas Bland & Sons® Gunmakers Limited. ex of New Row St. Martains Lane, London England. Thomas Bland is now located both in London England and Benton Pennsylvania USA.

Although Bland has been in business in London for over 150 years, the firm started life in Birmingham England. They were founded there in 1840 but the earliest record of them as Gunmakers is from 1862. James and Edwin Bland were in business as Gunmakers as early as 184o. Edwin being the brother of Thomas who founded the firm that was to bear his name.

Thomas Bland prospered at his original premises 41 Whittle Street. By 1867 they expanded into numbers 42 and 43, next to the Kings Arms Public House at the corner of Steelhouse Lane.

In 1872 the firm expanded even further, Thomas Bland Junior the son of the founder opened a branch at 105 Strand London and in 1886 they also acquired additional premises at 430 Strand. The original London premises were then closed.

The following year saw the death of the founder, the business being conducted by son Thomas. Up to the First World War Bland made not only shotguns but a wide range of rifles for Big Game. Thomas took out a Patents for rifle sights and with William Cashmore also of Birmingham a Patent for a special four barreled pistol was obtained.

The 1880's brought interest in three barrel guns and Bland produced one of their own. They were also responsible for the manufacturing of the "Field" Patent gun. Field guns were also made by Greener of Birmingham and Green of Cheltenham. Of the three Bland was the only firm who persevered with the design and produced the gun in all sizes up to a massive 4 - Bore which saw use in India and Africa. In the 1880's the firm opened premises in Liverpool at 62 South Castle Street. Guns with the Liverpool address are difficult to find and are great collectors items. They then advertised the "Keepers Gun" at 6 guineas and a "Wildfowlers" gun a central breechloader in 4-Bore with nickel silver furniture, Silvers recoil pad and a weight of 14 pounds for 21 guineas. The firm offered a nickel plated full choke "Cripple Stopper" at 8 guineas and made a special breech loading "Punt Gun" as well as "Harpoon Guns". All guns were available in special custom configuration including wood, cases and accessories.

In 1900 the firm moved the London Premises to 2 William IV Street and four years later T. Clifford Bland, the only son of Thomas Bland Junior became the third generation to join the firm after leaving Harrow. He concentrated on the wildfowling side of the business, so much so that the name of Bland became synonymous with wildfowling guns.

Changed circumstances following the First World War which had found Bland involved deeply in the War effort manufacturing everything from pistols, shotguns, rifles to trench scopes eventually saw the end of the Birmingham business close. In 1919 the London end of the firm moved from No. 2 and No. 4 to Numbers 4 - 6 William IV Street London. The firm then remained there for over 23 years.

Throughout the inner war years Bland continued to offer a wide range of sporting guns especially wildfowling guns including the " Magnum" ejector gun, a 3 inch 12 - Bore Anson & Deeley action gun with side panels and sold under the name "Greylag".

In 1943 with the firm again seriously involved in another War Effort, this time World War II T. Clifford Bland dies and the business was continued under the direction of Mr William Caseley. A particular favorite of Mr. Caseley was the development of the "Brent" wildfowl gun which was introduced in Post War 1948. The Brent was originally manufactured as a non-ejector. Like the "Greylag" the Brent was chambered for the 3 inch cartridge and pistol grip weighing in at about 7 1/2 pounds. The Brent was made again to order and could and did often end up as quite fancy guns indeed.

The firm moved in 1973 again, this time to New Rowe Street where the firm prospered. However in 1989 Mr. Caseley faced with a 100% increase in the rent, advancing age and a Son who did not wish or was not able to continue the business the central London offices were closed. In 1989 the Firm of Thomas Bland & Sons® Gunmakers Ltd. was taken over by C. J. Baker and G.O. Baker of Benton Pennsylvania, USA. The firm is now registered both in the UK and the USA. Bland continues making the best English sidelock and boxlock game guns and rifles in England with the bolt action rifles being manufactured primarily now in the USA.

Thomas Bland & Sons® Gunmakers Ltd. have been manufacturing by hand best quality sporting arms for over 150 years and looks forward to the next 150 years in the guntrade manufacturing bespoke sporting arms.

 

[RRCo.]

C.J. Baker does have the surviving Bland record books. Some were lost in the bombing of London in WWII IIRC.

 

[NShunter1254]

So it's clearly not in new condition,Is there any value here at all or should i just leave it hanging on the wall?

 

[tiriaq]

Your photos don't really show much detail, so it is hard to place a value.
The buttplate is obviously broken.
Is there any damage or significant rust? Are the bores good? Action tight, and barrels on the face of the standing breech?
The shotgun is not without value. If it is basically sound, it does have some value. If it were in crisp original condition it would have real value.

 

[NShunter1254]

Hammers are different from one side to the other,there is a slight dent across the barrels,piece missing from butt plate,Looks like rust in the pictures but i believe that's normal patina for the age.

 

[mooncoon]

I would put the price around $200, maybe a little more. While it has potential I think it requires a fair bit of work to get there

cheers mooncoon

 

[tacfoley]

It was, at one time, a very fine gun, but now appears to me to be beyond reasonable cost in terms of restoration. Certainly, if you asked Thos. Bland's associates who might be prepared to take it on, you are looking well into five figures.

IMO it has had all its history, and now needs a well earned rest, cared for and taken down off the wall for the odd 'bit of love'.

tac

 

[RRCo.]

Absolutely filthy. Obviously neglected and abused for many years. Now Beyond Economic Repair.

Too bad, but some people should only be trusted with hammer and shovels, not fine guns.

 

[antiqueguy]

a good cleaning and keeping it oiled would do good

it has damascus barrels so it should be a non shooter anyway

 

[mooncoon]

it has damascus barrels so it should be a non shooter anyway

The old BS about damascus; as long as they are in reasonable repair and as long as you reloading either with black powder or keeping your smokeless loads down around 7000 psi, damascus barrels are safe to shoot. Note the disclaimer about being in reasonable repair. I will admit to having occasionally shot fluid steel barrels but primarily shoot damascus

cheers mooncoon

 

[antiqueguy]

The old BS about damascus; as long as they are in reasonable repair and as long as you reloading either with black powder or keeping your smokeless loads down around 7000 psi, damascus barrels are safe to shoot. Note the disclaimer about being in reasonable repair. I will admit to having occasionally shot fluid steel barrels but primarily shoot damascus

cheers mooncoon

yes but id have them tested one will plug the end of the barrel and pour alcohol down the barrel if it leaks anywhere that means it has a bad weldsomewhere and should not be shot

i say its a non shooter because this is the internet anyone can see these comments someone shooting modern ammo out of a damascus barrel can be not good.

most are short chmbered 16ga could be 2 1/2"(i haveone this short) or 2 9/16" they will fit a 2 3/4" crimped/unfired shell but the crimp will open up into the forcing cone

 

[mooncoon]

the real issue is how thick are the barrels; they should be at least .020" wall thickness at the muzzle as well as no deep pits. The breach end should be at least .15" which is the same as modern shotguns. Plastic shells can be shot in the 2 5/8" chambers because the plastic is fairly thin as opposed to paper shells. I have already qualified the pressure issue by saying black powder or smokeless around 7000 psi. I have loaded to around 5000 but I get a lot of unburned powder because the pressure is too low

cheers mooncoon

 

[NShunter1254]

Thanks for the information.

 

[BSA Jack]

the real issue is how thick are the barrels; they should be at least .020" wall thickness at the muzzle as well as no deep pits. The breach end should be at least .15" which is the same as modern shotguns. Plastic shells can be shot in the 2 5/8" chambers because the plastic is fairly thin as opposed to paper shells. I have already qualified the pressure issue by saying black powder or smokeless around 7000 psi. I have loaded to around 5000 but I get a lot of unburned powder because the pressure is too low

cheers mooncoon

Originally Posted by antiqueguy
yes but id have them tested one will plug the end of the barrel and pour alcohol down the barrel if it leaks anywhere that means it has a bad weldsomewhere and should not be shot

i say its a non shooter because this is the internet anyone can see these comments someone shooting modern ammo out of a damascus barrel can be not good.

most are short chmbered 16ga could be 2 1/2"(i haveone this short) or 2 9/16" they will fit a 2 3/4" crimped/unfired shell but the crimp will open up into the forcing cone

Originally Posted by antiqueguy

it has damascus barrels so it should be a non shooter anyway



That is a wonderful old gun NS Hunter, It is sad to see it has not been very well cared for. I hope you can perhaps give it some TLC, so it lives out it,s days in comfort.
Antique guy, you seem to answer all these posts with superior knowledge of antique fireams but I sometimes wonder where you get that knowledge from. Is this from experience,
Mooncoon is SPOT on in what he says: Please note above post. I do have a little experience myself (or as my young friends say, just an old fuch that thinks he knows everything) Over the years I have shot many fine old damascus doubles- Parker, LC Smith, Remington, Belgium and Husqvarna to name a few. Mostly with BP but light smokeless loads too, exactly the way Mooncoon says, They are as safe as can be if you follow his advice. Perhaps you should read your own advvice. QUOTE because this is the internet anybody can see it) Well great advice but misimformation is just that, no matter where it comes from.. Cheers BS jack

 

[antiqueguy]

Originally Posted by antiqueguy
yes but id have them tested one will plug the end of the barrel and pour alcohol down the barrel if it leaks anywhere that means it has a bad weldsomewhere and should not be shot

i say its a non shooter because this is the internet anyone can see these comments someone shooting modern ammo out of a damascus barrel can be not good.

most are short chmbered 16ga could be 2 1/2"(i haveone this short) or 2 9/16" they will fit a 2 3/4" crimped/unfired shell but the crimp will open up into the forcing cone

Originally Posted by antiqueguy

it has damascus barrels so it should be a non shooter anyway



That is a wonderful old gun NS Hunter, It is sad to see it has not been very well cared for. I hope you can perhaps give it some TLC, so it lives out it,s days in comfort.
Antique guy, you seem to answer all these posts with superior knowledge of antique fireams but I sometimes wonder where you get that knowledge from. Is this from experience,
Mooncoon is SPOT on in what he says: Please note above post. I do have a little experience myself (or as my young friends say, just an old fuch that thinks he knows everything) Over the years I have shot many fine old damascus doubles- Parker, LC Smith, Remington, Belgium and Husqvarna to name a few. Mostly with BP but light smokeless loads too, exactly the way Mooncoon says, They are as safe as can be if you follow his advice. Perhaps you should read your own advvice. QUOTE because this is the internet anybody can see it) Well great advice but misimformation is just that, no matter where it comes from.. Cheers BS jack

you can say ive fooled around with a few damascus guns i also read alot of books on antiues and other firearms in general