Arisaka newb questions

[flying pig]

Hey guys, found myself looking over listings at Joe Salter's this morning and I have a couple nebwie questions about them.

First being what exactly was the mum and why were so many removed? Which models were they on originally?

Second being which ones had the monopod?

There now that I've proven my total ignorance towards Japanese arms I feel much better.

 

[Alex_Zues]

Short term for the imperial flower chrysanthemum. I heard that it was done to preserve the honor of the emperor after Japan's surrender. I guess it was a Japanese pre modern bubba attempt.

 

[jbmauser]

The "mums" were on both the Type 38's and 99's. The 99's had the monopod and anti-aircraft sights, at least the earlier production anyway.

And that's about the extent of my Arisaka knowledge.

 

[dirtytwo]

Some 'mums were ground off, others were peened with small circles at the petals (many of the training school, or "DP" equivalent, rifles had this). So long as it was defaced somehow before being surrendered or otherwise taken out of operational service, the emperor's honour wasn't violated.

 

[Pblatzz]

The Japanese soldier would not surrender after the war, the rifle had the Emperors symbol on them. In order to facilitate the surrender and not disgrace the Emperor, the Americans / Japanese ground or altered the Mum. Circles around the mum can mean it was issued to a school, but it's not set in stone, it is conformed for school use if the Mum was circled and had this

stamped above the rifle type designation.

Generally the Mum that has circles around it means it was sold out of service to a foreign power. As in the Type 38s left for Siam by Japanese troops (Siam being a Japanese allie) had the mun circled with a small ring of circles.

As for the Type 99, not all models had the mono pod or anti aircraft sights. The first series produced did have the mono pod and anti aircraft sights, but as war moved froward this provision was dropped with an option to install them. Later series dropped the option all together as the last ditch rifles came to fruition.

Interesting fact, I have two Type 99s, they type 99s have chrome bores, one has a chrome bolt face. A curious note, some people seem to think the rifling it very badly worn, but my reading into this is the rifling is a hybrid of land and groove + a style of metford rifling basically polygonal rifling. Interesting and in my view brilliant. Hot damp constant wet and the elimination of the sharpe groove in the lands of the rifling.

Adding, Japan abandoned chromed bores in late 1942 early 1943, they simply could not afford to use chrome that way anymore . Note, very few type 38's are found with chrome bores.


Good web sites with Japanese markings and info.

ht tp://www.radix.net/~bbrown/japanese_markings.html

 

[Pblatzz]

Short term for the imperial flower chrysanthemum. I heard that it was done to preserve the honor of the emperor after Japan's surrender. I guess it was a Japanese pre modern bubba attempt.

It was never a bubba attempt, this is part of the history of the war and part of the history of the war in the pacific. Rifles with the mun are considered to be worth more complete, taken in combat or after, or found in a warehouse, etc. Just part of the story.

 

[sledge]

I have heard that General MacArthur, after the Japanese surrender, also ordered that mums be ground off for the ones the Allies had captured.

If that is true, then the odds of getting a mum are rare indeed. Would have had to either been a guy who disobeyed an order, or someone who brought it back before the end.

 

[Pblatzz]

Here's a link that show the different models. ht tp://www.cruffler.com/trivia-September00.html

 

[bearhunter]

I have a late type 99 that was taken from a warehouse after the war, it still has the mum intact and a chrome bore.

Date of manufacture would be early 1944.

I also have a Thai type 99 that was converted to 30-06. It also retains the intact mum. It's the only one I've ever seen, so I don't know if that's normal for their rifles or not. No, it isn't a Korean rifle. Looks far different and is better done.

I have seen quite a few Chinese built Type 99s without mum crests ever being pressed into the receivers. Not surprising, considering that
China was still building them after the Japanese were turfed. Many went to North Korea. Many were made in 8x57 as well.

South Korea, rechambered many defaced Arisakas to 30-06 as well. The Koreans, defaced their captured Arisaka crests because of a hatred of anything Japanese.

The 30-06 chambered rifles are notably inaccurate with standard M2 ball ammo. Handloads with .311-.312 bullets can be and usually are very accurate.

I also have a Type 1, Carcano rifle that was built for Japan in their 6.5 calibre. It shares the same trigger guard as the type 99 and staggered mag well. It will accept an Arisaka bayonet and has the same two piece stock type. The bolt slot for the ejector is dead centre, rather than offset but other than that, are interchangeable with a regular Carcano bolt.

These rifles were supposedly intended for the Japanese navy. Most languished in warehouses until they were discovered after the war. Many had unfinished stocks and none had the mum crests on the receivers. No markings at all on them, other than the serial numbers.
Speculators say that the mums and other markings, as well as finishing were to be added later in Japan to defer costs.

 

[Pblatzz]

I also have a Thai type 99 that was converted to 30-06. It also retains the intact mum. It's the only one I've ever seen, so I don't know if that's normal for their rifles or not. No, it isn't a Korean rifle. Looks far different and is better done.

Does it look like a Siam type 66?

 

[bearhunter]

Does it look like a Siam type 66?

Nope, but if you're interested in seeing it, send me your email address and I will dig it out of the safe and send you some pics.