Berger VLD terminal performance?
- Thread starter Freyr_255
- Start date
My brother and I both used VLDs on our elk this year. I was shooting 210s out of my 300 win @ 2875 and my brother was shooting the 180s @ 3000 out of his. His kill was at 400 and mine was at 540 here is my opinion..... If you want a blood trail these are not the bullets for you. In our situation though they were the perfect bullet for us. We were in the mountains shooting cross canyons and in places where you wouldn't have been able to track anyway. We wanted to put the game down on the spot so the spotter could watch the animal where it fell and walk the other guy to it with a radio. We did this with three elk and it ended up working super.
Now for the terminal performance... My shot was quartering away for the first shot and I hit it right in front of the flank the bullet went in a bit and totally blew apart, imagine sticking a twelve gauge inside the elk and pulling the trigger total internal devastation. The elk took one leap and stood with his head down I gave him one more for good measure and he fell where he stood. The animal was stone dead within 5 seconds of the first shot. Works for me. My brothers kill was similar but he shot him three times in the ribs as fast as he could work the bolt. (This was the 400 yard shot)The elk never did take a step. None of the five bullets we shot at these animals were through and throughs. The vitals were completely destroyed and we couldn't have asked for better performance.
I'm not dissing barnes but I just for the life of me can't see how having a nice small hole in and out of the elk would have killed them any quicker. We wanted devastating terminal performance from our bullets and we got that from the bergers. Now if I was going to shoot at animals lengthwise a TSX is what I would be shooting. Don't know about the close rang deal and wasn't to worried about it because we knew the shots were going to be longish. Hope this real world experience helps.
R
Now for the terminal performance... My shot was quartering away for the first shot and I hit it right in front of the flank the bullet went in a bit and totally blew apart, imagine sticking a twelve gauge inside the elk and pulling the trigger total internal devastation. The elk took one leap and stood with his head down I gave him one more for good measure and he fell where he stood. The animal was stone dead within 5 seconds of the first shot. Works for me. My brothers kill was similar but he shot him three times in the ribs as fast as he could work the bolt. (This was the 400 yard shot)The elk never did take a step. None of the five bullets we shot at these animals were through and throughs. The vitals were completely destroyed and we couldn't have asked for better performance.
I'm not dissing barnes but I just for the life of me can't see how having a nice small hole in and out of the elk would have killed them any quicker. We wanted devastating terminal performance from our bullets and we got that from the bergers. Now if I was going to shoot at animals lengthwise a TSX is what I would be shooting. Don't know about the close rang deal and wasn't to worried about it because we knew the shots were going to be longish. Hope this real world experience helps.
R
A ballistic tip and a boat tail, wait, just add a partition to the accubond and it would be the only bullet I would ever need, for anything, except varmint shooting, although that would work too!
I have used the 180gr wth my 7wsm and the 140gr with my 260AI, both on deer and I have never had to take a second shot. There isn't much left of the bullet but hey I prefer to eat meat over bullets anyway. There are other bullets out there but these have worked for me and I will continue to use them until I find a more accurate bullet in my rifles.
Thanks for the additional input guys. Keep em' coming if you got them. I'm really tempted to try these in something after reading these stories just because I want to see first hand some of this devastation.
That was a great read as well Rabid. Hands down my favorite quote this month is "imagine sticking a twelve gauge inside the elk and pulling the trigger total internal devastation". I honestly laugh every time I read that.
That was a great read as well Rabid. Hands down my favorite quote this month is "imagine sticking a twelve gauge inside the elk and pulling the trigger total internal devastation". I honestly laugh every time I read that.
I should add that I also use Sierra Matchkings (depending on what shoots better in that particular rifle) and get similar results.
I actually shot another coyote this morning out by back door with the .260AI(with Berger VLDs) and at 401m it went through him and put a baseball sized exit wound on the far side.
I actually shot another coyote this morning out by back door with the .260AI(with Berger VLDs) and at 401m it went through him and put a baseball sized exit wound on the far side.
bearkilr
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Nowhere, ......just past the middle
How do you know that ahead of time? ESP?
As for 24 hr campfire they were not what you would call civil at all.The cult of Berger is alive and well.A couple of people posted Berger blowups as I had but most accused me of bad shot placement .PS I wasn't the shooter. I found most of them overall arrogant and self righteous having neither been there but CSI experts none the less.When you post a pic of bullet remnants of course it can't be true.Doubt I'll contribute there again....
Just read that thread from 24hr campfire posted above and I must say I'm inclined to agree. Kind of why I've started this thread asking for experiences as all the name calling and conjecturing gets old in a bloody hurry and only serves to increase the story telling rather than fact sharing.
This is not only a problem on the internet but in gun shops, hunt camps... wherever you have passionate people, you will have strong opinions. The problem with this is that many people don't have the first hand knowlege that one is looking for before they make purchase be it bullets, scopes, barrels, reloading gear... I am still looking for someone to give me an unbiased, factual comparison between a Schmidt & Bender and either a USO or a Premier Reticles. All I keep hearing is once you go S&B you can't go back to Nightforce. I'll bet half the people touting S&B have never even owned one(Sorry, I got a little off topic there).
The Berger bullet is what it is... a very accurate VLD bullet that one can use for hunting. Is it a great hunting bullet? Well, that depend on ones definition of a great hunting bullet. If you expect 96% wieght retention, or a bullet that confidently will drop dangerous game the answer is no. If you expect excellent long range ballistics and reliably dropping thin skinned game at almost any distance then your answer is yes.
Take my findings for what you will but on coyote, antelope, deer, elk and moose they have worked well for me. I would not use them for bear defence, thats for sure.
I can't comment with my own personal experience, as I have none. However if you go to the longrangehunting . com forum there are a few threads including lots of pictures related to Berger bullets for hunting. There is also one for the SMK.
Just a thought
Derek
Just a thought
Derek
paperslayer
Regular
- Location
- Chilliwack
IVO, it is good to hear expereince like yours. You sound sincere. I have used them on deer and would not hesitate to do so again. what they lack in theoretical intergrity, they make up for with incredible precision. I would have been reluctant to use on larger game, but would be less so after hearing your thoughts.
Have you found much pelt damage on things like the coyotes? One of the things I was concerned about with this bullet was using it on too small of game and blowing a fist sized hole out the back of a fur bearing animal effectively destroying the pelt. On the same token meat damage in that regard would be an issue as well(destroying the opposite quarter). Obviously this would all depend on what caliber is used but I'd like to hear some more detail from you on that aspect of bullet performance if you would be so inclined.
Have you found much pelt damage on things like the coyotes? One of the things I was concerned about with this bullet was using it on too small of game and blowing a fist sized hole out the back of a fur bearing animal effectively destroying the pelt. On the same token meat damage in that regard would be an issue as well(destroying the opposite quarter). Obviously this would all depend on what caliber is used but I'd like to hear some more detail from you on that aspect of bullet performance if you would be so inclined.
I have heard some accounts of these types of bullets "penciling" through game but these aren't my experiences, in fact quite the contrary. On smaller game I have found that they do plenty of damage especially coyotes/antelope/deer and even moreso at long range. I only killed 3 deer in the last 2 years over 400m(and under 600m), but have killed a dozen or so coyotes past 300m and the damage was extensive. Out of a .260AI (so 6.5mm 140gr Berger VLD) over half of the game shot over 300m had tennis ball/ baseball sized exit wounds. When I am in a hunting situation, I will only take a head shot at close range or a broadside shot at long range. When shooting broadside I always try to put the bullet behind the shoulder and ideally exit in the same spot offside, shoulder or high-shoulder shots are devestating and even like most hunting bullets, the whole front half will be ruined.
I am no expert on this issue and these are only my experiences but I would like to add that I have used many hunting bullets as well including Gamekings, Partitions, Accubonds, Interbonds, Sciroccos...(I think its obvious I'm not a fan of Barnes) and I don't think that these bullets do any more or less damage than these target bullets, I think they just make different damage if that makes sense. The hunting bullets make more of a wound channel or cavity whereas the Berger or SMK fragment and have a shrapnel (sp?) effect.
To answer your question, I would not use these bullets if you want to keep pelts. Maybe a FMJ or a Lapua Scenar would work, neither on them will work as a hunting bullet and both truely will pencil through so game recovery may become an issue but neither will make large exit wounds.
Thanks for the info. I really do like reading about this kind of thing from first hand sources who don't embellish. I might have to eventually develop a load for this bullet and go coyote hunting next time I'm back in southern AB....where I can just shoot and leave the bastards.
We're required to harvest the pelt here as it's considered a fur bearing animal.
A .270 Winchester 130 grain Barnes recovered from a deer and a .338 WinMag 250 grain Nosler Partition recovered from a moose.
Using FMJ bullets in a .22-250 that were loaded to minimize pelt damage on beavers were used on marmots and some of the varmints were latterly ripped in half.
Both of those rifles are gone and my .260 Remington uses 130 grain Barnes TSX while the .280 Remington will be using 140 grain Barnes TTSX if further testing is good.
Those who are "sold" on the VLD as a hunting bullet can pass on this post.
There appear to be some hunters who feel that surgical precision trumps terminal performance in a big game bullet.
I do not fall into that category, personally.
I will gladly sacrifice ½ MOA for reliable performance at all practical hunting ranges, and at all angles in the animal.
Since I have only hunted since 1957, and my game count is less than 400, I may not be qualified to state an opinion.
However, I am a bullet "digger", and have quite a collection....everything from 6mm right up to 338 Win Mag.
While the venerable Partition has been my favorite, I have used many other designs over the years.
Deer sized game are easily killed with practically any ordinary expanding bullet. Bones are relaitvely small, and penetration is easy to achieve.
Larger game, like Moose, Elk and the Big Bears, require a better projectile, particularly if you must break large bone to get to the vitals.
Even some so-called "better" game bullets have limitations. The Accubond is one of these.
Drive it hard enough into an animal at close range, and it will disintegrate.
I have used the Scirocco II a bit lately, and have only one recovered, the others have made exit, showing definite signs of good expansion, even at extended range.
The one I recovered was shot at a "quartering toward" moose, and broke the large knuckle at the shoulder before entering the lungs.
Found in the opposite flank.
I believe that would be my choice, rather than the VLD, for long range hunting.
I have often sectioned bullets, just to see how they were constructed....The VLD looks mighty fragile to me, very thin jacket, and core with no incentive to stay intact.
IF [big if, and highly unlikely] I decided to take the VLD hunting, I would avoid all shots at close range, or where penetration through any sunstantial bone is needed.
This would mean passing up at least 60% of the shots I would be presented with, Shots that would have NO hesitation from me if a Partition was in the rifle.
I am disinclined to handicap myself in such a way in todays hunting climate.
If you want to shoot those VLDs at game...have at it! But when you lose a game animal due to poor bullet performance, remember what the VLD really shines at.
Punching paper!!!! I use them all the time, and feel they are possibly the best LR target bullet ever made.
Sure, I'm an opinionated shooter/hunter. But experience tends to be an excellent teacher. [unforgiving at times, though, lol]
Regards, Eagleye.
There appear to be some hunters who feel that surgical precision trumps terminal performance in a big game bullet.
I do not fall into that category, personally.
I will gladly sacrifice ½ MOA for reliable performance at all practical hunting ranges, and at all angles in the animal.
Since I have only hunted since 1957, and my game count is less than 400, I may not be qualified to state an opinion.
However, I am a bullet "digger", and have quite a collection....everything from 6mm right up to 338 Win Mag.
While the venerable Partition has been my favorite, I have used many other designs over the years.
Deer sized game are easily killed with practically any ordinary expanding bullet. Bones are relaitvely small, and penetration is easy to achieve.
Larger game, like Moose, Elk and the Big Bears, require a better projectile, particularly if you must break large bone to get to the vitals.
Even some so-called "better" game bullets have limitations. The Accubond is one of these.
Drive it hard enough into an animal at close range, and it will disintegrate.
I have used the Scirocco II a bit lately, and have only one recovered, the others have made exit, showing definite signs of good expansion, even at extended range.
The one I recovered was shot at a "quartering toward" moose, and broke the large knuckle at the shoulder before entering the lungs.
Found in the opposite flank.
I believe that would be my choice, rather than the VLD, for long range hunting.
I have often sectioned bullets, just to see how they were constructed....The VLD looks mighty fragile to me, very thin jacket, and core with no incentive to stay intact.
IF [big if, and highly unlikely] I decided to take the VLD hunting, I would avoid all shots at close range, or where penetration through any sunstantial bone is needed.
This would mean passing up at least 60% of the shots I would be presented with, Shots that would have NO hesitation from me if a Partition was in the rifle.
I am disinclined to handicap myself in such a way in todays hunting climate.
If you want to shoot those VLDs at game...have at it! But when you lose a game animal due to poor bullet performance, remember what the VLD really shines at.
Punching paper!!!! I use them all the time, and feel they are possibly the best LR target bullet ever made.
Sure, I'm an opinionated shooter/hunter.
But experience tends to be an excellent teacher. [unforgiving at times, though, lol]Regards, Eagleye.
