An extended stay away from milsurps

Riflechair

Riflechair

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We all go through a period of time when we walk away from milsurp collecting and sometimes this happens for numerous years. Many of us leave for good and never return. There are a multitude of reasons for doing this... I have heard members say that they have "Outgrown" this passion and others sometimes say that their interest simply was never there to begin with.

I probably should have registered my username with CGN as YOYO because I seem to have spurts of interest as this or that invokes a new interest however my own personal observation is that I simply want to experience a new milsurp platform.

Over the last 20 years I have sampled a sufficient number of milsurp rifles and have, in my opinion, started to assume an educated opinion. Strangely enough I have discovered (and I was shocked at this revelation) that:

1. Mosin Nagants are the most affordable and accurate milsurp rifles in the history of humanity. Yes I can outshoot 1908 Brazilians and M96 Swedes with M91/30's with dirt cheap milsurp ammo. No wonder Soviet snipers were so successful. Now that I own an original PU sniper I am beginning to understand the operational effectiveness of these platforms. Even a replica PU sniper with a rotten bore shot circles around my mint M47C No4Mk1T with refurbished optics. This is an easily argueable opinion and I know many of you mauser minded professionals will disagree. I am simply stating an opinion and I don't want to go into specifics because I'm lazy and my feelings are easily hurt :( .

2. Any US milsurp (especially M1 Garands) are a very nice milsurp platform but I'd rather have an excellent No4Mk1 Enfield for $800+. If you have $2000 to waste please buy an M1 Garand. To me a burned out M1 Garand is not worth more than a mint No4 Lee Enfield. Certainly they are by no means a more accurate battle rifle platform. Don't try to prove me wrong - I know the difference. I've owned mint 1903 Springfields and can vouch that they are good shooters but not significantly better than any of the comparable enfields I've owned. False economy IMHO just like the current over-inflated US market economy. Stop falling for the US milsurp scam people. It is a scam to pay more than $600 for a tired Garand. I must say though that the rebuilt M1 Garands Pocketfisherman is offering REALLY tempt me. Did I just contradict myself?

3. K98k Mausers - I have a love affair with these rifles and have based the 98 large ring action for all of my hunting rifles. With out a doubt these are the best and most reliable hunting actions to this day. I feel very sorry for those people using M70 winchesters, 700 remingtons, Savages of any manufacture or Weatherby platforms. I have tried them all and to one degree or another was left wanting when in muck, ice and snow. After 20 years I've gone back to what I know works and that is the Model 98 Mauser.

4. The Lee Enfield. My preference is the No4 variant. I am an anomoly because I know how these rifles operate and what makes them effective. I work with them as a Cdn Ranger and I enjoy them for hunting and as a recreational avenue. I shoot them Provincially and Nationally with great success and I take it personally when these rifles receive a bad review. For me they are the best rifle platform man has ever conceived as a bolt action battle rifle.

I sometimes need to remind myself of what I need to have in my collection and what is superfluous.
I will always have one nagant, one enfield and one mauser.

Anything else is simply a passing interest.
Sorry if I have offended anyone (not really but it's the Canadian thing to say right?)

It is a crazy period right now in the milsurp arena.
It is very difficult to get new people involved simply because of the difficulty obtaining rifles in descent condition and the cost of ammunition. New shooters are not reloaders usually. Even reloading for one rifle, on a regular basis, is an extremely expensive hobby. Is there something you can do to help a new shooter out? I make an effort to help new shooters out - In many respects.

If it weren't for nagants and the surge of 7.62X54R ammo I'd say we were rendering our selves extinct.
Actually we are...
Buy this ammo while it's still available and affordable folks......
 
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You couldn't go wrong with a mosin like riflechair said they are very accurate and affordable I couldn't beleive my eyes on Sunday when I managed to get 1.5 inch 5 shot group at 100m with a 160$ rifle, I did bed the action and the barrel and did a trigger job but all it takes is foil, a few strips from an old shirt and some thick paper so anyone can do it, before bedding the rifle it got 3 inch groups with surplus ( 1.5 inch group was with 180gr fmj PPU)
The others are good but also quite expensive to buy and shoot regularly
 
Very thought provoking and funny post! Seems to be some interesting trends I've noticed also.

Some members are making some really good posts, with quality pictures of pieces in their collections and information.

Hopefully we can stay on track, I'd hate to see a drop in the quality of posts due to outlandish statements and complaining about prices. There are no other truly Canadian milsurp forums that have high traffic.

-Steve
 
*smiles* This does beg the question - does one end up stockpiling milsurp ammo, due to its transient nature on the market ? We've just seen the Norinco 7.62x39 supply dry up today; how many more are left? The problem with milsurps that I have is that they are all bigbore and all semi auto. (translated lotsa rounds) .

If the ammo dries up, I'll have to start aiming.
 
I remember when access to this ammo was VERY episodic so you would grab it while it was available. We have been very used to it's availability over the last few years but it will not last. Rifles are cheap - ammo is not. Get it while you still cane. OH OH My hoarding tendencies are coming out again. I still aim though...

johann_seb said:
*smiles* This does beg the question - does one end up stockpiling milsurp ammo, due to its transient nature on the market ? We've just seen the Norinco 7.62x39 supply dry up today; how many more are left? The problem with milsurps that I have is that they are all bigbore and all semi auto. (translated lotsa rounds) .

If the ammo dries up, I'll have to start aiming.
Click to expand...
 
The wife will kill me if I buy any more crates of ammo..:) My hoarding tendencies never went away..:)
Riflechair said:
I remember when access to this ammo was VERY episodic so you would grab it while it was available. We have been very used to it's availability over the last few years but it will not last. Rifles are cheap - ammo is not. Get it while you still cane. OH OH My hoarding tendencies are coming out again. I still aim though...
Click to expand...
 
Thanks for your assessment.

I personally have found the Swiss K31 to be the most accurate Milsurp hands-down, but when you factor in the "new shooter" phenomenon (cheap firearm and cheap ammo and accurate) I agree that the Mosin Nagant is a winner, and you make a good point - it's tough to ignore the SKS though. Those two guns are perfect to expose a new shooter to milsurps and get them interested in the history, at which point the collection grows.
 
Andy said:
Thanks for your assessment.

I personally have found the Swiss K31 to be the most accurate Milsurp hands-down, but when you factor in the "new shooter" phenomenon (cheap firearm and cheap ammo and accurate) I agree that the Mosin Nagant is a winner, and you make a good point - it's tough to ignore the SKS though. Those two guns are perfect to expose a new shooter to milsurps and get them interested in the history, at which point the collection grows.
Click to expand...

Indeed I took a K-31 to a milsurp match and it felt like cheating. Although a fair bit has to do with the shooter, I think that's why the Nagant is still decent but if we put a Nagant and a Mauser or K-31 in a benchrest I've got a feeling I know which one will group better. Sometimes you get lucky though and find one that really shoots, with the K-31 this is with every rifle it seems.
 
I agree with everything about these fine weapons. I used to has a bias towards Enfields pretty much untill the day I got my first Mosin. That sucker was as accurate as anything I have ever shot. I now own 6 of them and 7 Lee enfields. Love em all.
 
Actually,

Most of the garands I sell are under 2K unless it is something special like a WW2 Lend Lease with original parts. Hey I could rip off the flush nut rear sight and get $650.00 for that piece alone. Others that approach the 2K mark are .308 or 762 builds. Do the math, broken down by the parts list, you will pay more that 2K for mint 100% finish NOS parts and a new $400.00 .308 or 762 barrel. Factor in the time to source build and test each rifle and deliver a MINT example... I wish they were still $500.00 each I would buy dozens of them at that price. It is supply and demand, new younger shooting fans wanting to own the rifles they play with on Call of Duty, new collectors in their 30s,40s or 50s that want an example of dad or grandfathers service rifle. Take a look at what happened to just the price of Garand receivers. Last year I could buy mint Italian receivers for $60.00, now I have seen these same receivers advertised for north of $400.00?!? Strange times indeed.

Lee Enfields will get there, in another 3 years LE will be north of $1000.00 or more for full wood numbers matching. WW2 has replaced the civil war as the era to collect. It is the military history of the "greatest generation. Just go to Chapters and look at the shear amount of WW2 books compared to any other event in mankind's history.


Riflechair said:
We all go through a period of time when we walk away from milsurp collecting and sometimes this happens for numerous years. Many of us leave for good and never return. There are a multitude of reasons for doing this... I have heard members say that they have "Outgrown" this passion and others sometimes say that their interest simply was never there to begin with.

I probably should have registered my username with CGN as YOYO because I seem to have spurts of interest as this or that invokes a new interest however my own personal observation is that I simply want to experience a new milsurp platform.

Over the last 20 years I have sampled a sufficient number of milsurp rifles and have, in my opinion, started to assume an educated opinion. Strangely enough I have discovered (and I was shocked at this revelation) that:

1. Mosin Nagants are the most affordable and accurate milsurp rifles in the history of humanity. Yes I can outshoot 1908 Brazilians and M96 Swedes with M91/30's with dirt cheap milsurp ammo. No wonder Soviet snipers were so successful. Now that I own an original PU sniper I am beginning to understand the operational effectiveness of these platforms. Even a replica PU sniper with a rotten bore shot circles around my mint M47C No4Mk1T with refurbished optics. This is an easily argueable opinion and I know many of you mauser minded professionals will disagree. I am simply stating an opinion and I don't want to go into specifics because I'm lazy and my feelings are easily hurt :( .

2. Any US milsurp (especially M1 Garands) are a very nice milsurp platform but I'd rather have an excellent No4Mk1 Enfield for $800+. If you have $2000 to waste please buy an M1 Garand. To me a burned out M1 Garand is not worth more than a mint No4 Lee Enfield. Certainly they are by no means a more accurate battle rifle platform. Don't try to prove me wrong - I know the difference. I've owned mint 1903 Springfields and can vouch that they are good shooters but not significantly better than any of the comparable enfields I've owned. False economy IMHO just like the current over-inflated US market economy. Stop falling for the US milsurp scam people. It is a scam to pay more than $600 for a tired Garand. I must say though that the rebuilt M1 Garands Pocketfisherman is offering REALLY tempt me. Did I just contradict myself?

3. K98k Mausers - I have a love affair with these rifles and have based the 98 large ring action for all of my hunting rifles. With out a doubt these are the best and most reliable hunting actions to this day. I feel very sorry for those people using M70 winchesters, 700 remingtons, Savages of any manufacture or Weatherby platforms. I have tried them all and to one degree or another was left wanting when in muck, ice and snow. After 20 years I've gone back to what I know works and that is the Model 98 Mauser.

4. The Lee Enfield. My preference is the No4 variant. I am an anomoly because I know how these rifles operate and what makes them effective. I work with them as a Cdn Ranger and I enjoy them for hunting and as a recreational avenue. I shoot them Provincially and Nationally with great success and I take it personally when these rifles receive a bad review. For me they are the best rifle platform man has ever conceived as a bolt action battle rifle.

I sometimes need to remind myself of what I need to have in my collection and what is superfluous.
I will always have one nagant, one enfield and one mauser.

Anything else is simply a passing interest.
Sorry if I have offended anyone (not really but it's the Canadian thing to say right?)

It is a crazy period right now in the milsurp arena.
It is very difficult to get new people involved simply because of the difficulty obtaining rifles in descent condition and the cost of ammunition. New shooters are not reloaders usually. Even reloading for one rifle, on a regular basis, is an extremely expensive hobby. Is there something you can do to help a new shooter out? I make an effort to help new shooters out - In many respects.

If it weren't for nagants and the surge of 7.62X54R ammo I'd say we were rendering our selves extinct.
Actually we are...
Buy this ammo while it's still available and affordable folks......
Click to expand...
 
I worked a gunshow on the weekend and to my surprise the no1Mk3 Enfield stuff is making a huge comeback. Not sure if it is because of the 100 year anniversary of the first world war, or it was just an anomaly.

For those who did want no4 stuff (very popular as well) I apologized for the prices to the buyers who were looking for trivial things like barrel bands or screws. Having to charge $10 for bands, or even for that tiny extractor spring, seemed criminal to me, but they checked elsewhere at the show and found the prices to be 2 to 3 times as high in some cases. However, pretty much all the buyers of the Enfield stuff were younger, which bodes well for the hobby. Mind you, it could just be that I am getting older than the median which made it appear that way.

As to the yo yo of the milsurps, I started as a military vehicle collector, which meant I had to have the uniforms, the radios and the firearms. I seem to be constantly drawn back and forth between the guns and the vehicles. This could in part be due to the cimate here, where working on vehicles from December to March is downright cold.
 
I agree with the OP about the Mosins.
I'm no big collector, never have been, but getting an original PU sniper and seeing how accurate it was made me understand the turn at Stalingrad.
Men and women by the thousands waiting for the enemy to pop his head up. A brutal freezing battle!
Russian and German soldiers both pushed beyond belief or shot by their commanders.
This is why I get the history of those guns.

I've owned a few Swedish Mausers and K-31's. To be honest, they were very accurate, but they never fought any wars. I feel no love for them.
I can't explain that, but there it is.
Would like to get a nice example of a K98k with all the "dirty birds", but not take a second mortgage doing so.
M1 Garands, Lee Enfields never appealed to me. Don't know why and I could have bought crates of them back in the early 90's for cheap. I remember the Danish M1's going for $150. I owned a new in the wrap Irish No4's. Still unfired when I sold it.

I also think since Call of Duty came out the younger generation want to try the real thing. I understand that, but what a shocker for most of them to see the price of a nice Garand! Hence the appeal for the Mosina.
 
I tend to agree with your mosin view, I'm partial to the reds myself. As a matter of fact its the only milsurp flavor I've tasted so far. I had an old M38 for over 20yrs and she took more moose and caribou than I care to remember, and she never let me down. When I was knee high to a grasshopper I use to go hunting with my big brother, he had a $28 Finn M91,bought back in the 80's, and he would drop moose from over 500yds away,sometimes further, the accuracy was astounding. The reds are all I've ever known, I guess thats why I have 2 SVT's and 2 SKS's in my collection. I'm looking for a good mosin to put in the locker but she's proving hard to find. One day I'll maybe venture down the mauser path but I'm to close to my reds to go down there yet. I loved your point of view and your frankness op and thanks for getting me down memory lane. God bless.
 
I really get this...
You're not alone.

lejarretnoir said:
I agree with the OP about the Mosins.
I'm no big collector, never have been, but getting an original PU sniper and seeing how accurate it was made me understand the turn at Stalingrad.
Men and women by the thousands waiting for the enemy to pop his head up. A brutal freezing battle!
Russian and German soldiers both pushed beyond belief or shot by their commanders.
This is why I get the history of those guns.
Click to expand...
 
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