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As someone who has watched a buddy take an XCR, grab it by the barrel, and kick the charging handle with his boot heel to clear a jam . . .
*ahem* Ross Rifle *cough*
Tier 0,1,2,3,4,5. For Modern Blackrifle Mil/Leo/Civi 2012/2013 Rankings
- Thread starter Leibermuster
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As someone who has watched a buddy take an XCR, grab it by the barrel, and kick the charging handle with his boot heel to clear a jam . . .
*ahem* Ross Rifle *cough*
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CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Mountains, Alberta
That's Alexander Robinson's Opinion too. He told me so at Shot Show last year. He may have had crazy eyes.
Stanag mags are not all that great of a design, I say this because the majority of AR malfunctions are mag related and we are always keen to hang onto our " good mags" and steer clear of the "sh!tty mags". I have lost count of how many times a C7 or AR malfunctioned on me due to a bad mag. The feed lips are easily bent and they are not as robust as other designs. There are no sh!tty Swiss mags and you can drop the rifle on concrete mag down and it won't fail to fire. Try that with a GI mag in an AR. Yes I know we now have the wonderful pee mags but they are not the NATO standard at this point.
Their one good thing is that they are the quickest mag design around to change out!! Swiss Arms now offers the 553 with a lower that uses stanag mags from the factory and it is available. Not as a complete rifle to the Canadian market afaik but certainly to Mil and Police.
I will add that IMHO the best mag design out there is the G36. As tough as the Swiss design with a rim around the mag that butts up against the bottom of the mag well, but a straight push up to lock. They can also be hooked together like a Swiss mag.
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How can we even measure the XCR for durability as a weapons platform? It has only been around for a few years and no military uses it. It is not fielded in mass quantities by anyone and sh!tkicked by troops during combat or even regular infantry use. Soldiers are hard on equipment!!
All the others (AR, Tavor, HK, Swiss ect) are in service, some have been in service for decades!! I don't see it scoring past 4 on that one.
All the others (AR, Tavor, HK, Swiss ect) are in service, some have been in service for decades!! I don't see it scoring past 4 on that one.
Steve Janes
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Calgary/Ontario
I agree, the XCR is a decent rifle, but the review written above for it by Alberta Gunslinger is hilarious. (For someone with only 1000 rounds down the pipe through one, what do you expect right?) The XCR needs much more time and testing to be proven. No tier 1 users at all. In fact what reputable group uses the XCR? None to my my knowledge. I would rank it in the mid the high tier 4 region, right along side the AR180B. A far stretch from the 88/100 he gave it.
STANAG mags have always been one of the AR's largest drawback IMO, the design has always been inherently flawed.
There are flat-top version's in all standard lengths. They also make 4 point quad rails for all lengths, and smaller rails that can be attached to the hand guard of the carbine's and CQB's
No one said they were the gun of guns' but I certainly feel they should be ranked in tier 0 along side the HK 416
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I must admit, that was the point of me, well, pointing it out. The full size PE90 is still a fantastic rifle, don't get me wrong, but other than Swiss military, I don't recall any sizable military force using them and I think that says a lot. The Swiss Carbine and the CQB are MUCH better rifle based on their better ergonomics - length, weight, etc - and that's why you see ALOT more of them out there being used.
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Steve Janes
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Calgary/Ontario
I pretty much agree with most of what you just said, the Carbine's are where it's at, we Canadian's who shoot NR Swiss have the worst of the family.
How many sizable forces use full length rifles these days anyway? And if they do can you honestly tell me a 20.9" barreled something else is going to be that much better handling?
Don't think that when I say the Swiss should be ranked in tier 0, I mean strictly the 550 length. I mean the Swiss Family of rifles should be ranked that high. It's a tool box, you pick your tool for your mission. Not a lot of mission where I'd "ideally" take a 5.56 full length model 20" barreled rifle, but here in Canada the law gives me little choice if I want to shoot a NR Swiss. In a perfect world, I'd be running a 14.3" Carbine for CQB and Urban, and a 17.9" carbine for longer stuff, the 553LB is really nice too, but I would never run a full length if I could be using a Carbine, too heavy. (And yet still comparable to any other full length 20" plus 5.56 piston gun)
For the record, further sizable forces using the SG550:
Indonesian Army, and Special Forces
Armed Forces of Malta
Brazilian Federal Police
Not very reputable I know
And again the weight of the Swiss keeps coming up. Can anyone refute these specs:
ACR with 14.5" barrel (7.8 lb)
XCR-L with 16" barrel (7.5 lb)
HK 416 "D16.5RS" with 16.5'' barrel (7.85 lb)
Swiss Arms Carbine with 14.3" barrel (7.5 lb)
Swiss Arms Carbine with 17.9'' barrel (7.94 lb)
Tavor with 18.1'' barrel (8.1 lb)
Tavor with a 16.1" barrel (7 lb)
How are the Swiss Rifles listed not on par with the others?
Now a Swiss Arms Rifle with 20.9'' barrel weighs in at 8.6 lbs. I cannot find specs for the other rifles with the longer barrels but I am thinking that if you add the appropriate amount of barrel to bring the others up to 20.9'' then the Swiss would be on par again. According to these numbers, the entire weight issue is a complete myth blown out of proportion by people comparing them to DI Ar's
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Steve Janes
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Calgary/Ontario
He wanted users of just the 550 not the 551, do the French Commando's run 550's as well? If so, there not listed on Wikipedia, under the French army it lists 551LB, which is the Carbine with a 17.9" barrel.
AlbertaGunslinger
Regular
- Location
- The Wide Open Prairie
HAHAHA...got some serious XCR haters on here. I don't think the Swiss Arms would satisfy the SCAR program requirements and it is a design the incorperates the best they could come up with in the 80s, the XCR has 20+ years of devlopment on it.
Oh and just because I have only put 1000 rounds through it means nothing. The rifle was tested out the a$$ so if would exceed every requirement for the SOCOM trials and the SCAR program. Plus Steve Janes, it seems to me that a Swiss Arms that a certain CGNer owned completely sh!t the bed and it also seems to me that the manufacturer had some pretty terrible customer service in that situation. I have never heard of an XCR be so paralyzed and you can be damn sure that if there is an issue with your XCR it will be fixed or replaced no questions asked.
I'm not saying that the Swiss Arms is a bad rifle, or that in some ways it is not superior to the XCR but if you gave a real operator the choice between using an XCR or a Swiss Arms on an operation they are going to take an XCR. There is a reason why no US special forces use the Sig 550 or 540 series of rifles when they can choose any gun they want and yes I know that no US special forces use the XCR, but they do use the SCAR which was designed for the exact same thing as the XCR and if you know the details about each firearms you would know that the XCR is a superior design to the SCAR.
Now I'm not here to argue so that is all I will say on this thread but I would encourage those with opinions based on conjecture and hearsay to look at the facts before they start running their mouths like Wendy.
Oh and just because I have only put 1000 rounds through it means nothing. The rifle was tested out the a$$ so if would exceed every requirement for the SOCOM trials and the SCAR program. Plus Steve Janes, it seems to me that a Swiss Arms that a certain CGNer owned completely sh!t the bed and it also seems to me that the manufacturer had some pretty terrible customer service in that situation. I have never heard of an XCR be so paralyzed and you can be damn sure that if there is an issue with your XCR it will be fixed or replaced no questions asked.
I'm not saying that the Swiss Arms is a bad rifle, or that in some ways it is not superior to the XCR but if you gave a real operator the choice between using an XCR or a Swiss Arms on an operation they are going to take an XCR. There is a reason why no US special forces use the Sig 550 or 540 series of rifles when they can choose any gun they want and yes I know that no US special forces use the XCR, but they do use the SCAR which was designed for the exact same thing as the XCR and if you know the details about each firearms you would know that the XCR is a superior design to the SCAR.
Now I'm not here to argue so that is all I will say on this thread but I would encourage those with opinions based on conjecture and hearsay to look at the facts before they start running their mouths like Wendy.
Steve Janes
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Calgary/Ontario
As long as you don't upset Mr. Robinson, otherwise, he guarantee's you a spot at the back of the line! Or did you miss that part of his letter? LOL
Someone please school this boy!
Can you name any "Real operator's" that run XCR's??? NO, you can't, and that's because world wide, there isn't a single reputable group, that runs them. That's right, NOT ONE
Just so others don't get steered the wrong way here, if what you want is a rifle that is out of the box ready to add accessories to, then the XCR is IMO the best NR Modular rifle we have available to us in Canada, it just needs a lot before it can be rated anywhere near the top. Here are some video's of my old man running his, it works great for him, and always has, he has never had any "problems", he's got about 4000 rounds through it and I have been there for almost all of it, rarely if ever, has he had any issues at all with it. I've shot it a bunch too and never had issues.
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This is exactly the kind of comment that belongs in this thread.
For SAN modularity and accessories mounting here are some pics of the latest carbines in use. Designators, vert grips, ect.
I will also include some real world use pics by infantry of the full size reg force SIG550.
Tacticool carbines.
Sig 550
I will also include some real world use pics by infantry of the full size reg force SIG550.
Tacticool carbines.
Sig 550
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Steve Janes
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Calgary/Ontario
YEAAAA dude, these pics are awesome, where did you find this stuff????
me too
I don't have my prohib. license to buy it legally.
I think the orig. post said non-restricted.
I have 2 .308 Valmet hunters, 1 converted to M76 the other a Galil. The parts used for the Hunters are the same as M76 and early model Galil.
I've tried real M76, Galil and AKs state side and I found them to function and feel pretty much the same as my (a work in progress) dressed up Hunters.
I've tried real M76, Galil and AKs state side and I found them to function and feel pretty much the same as my (a work in progress) dressed up Hunters.
That is a LONG schwartz you got there in your av. pic.. (SpaceBalls for you young folk)
Epic potential is what came to mind after reading it.
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