Gun Cart - safe muzzle direction

Everyone's rules seems to work well enough for each game, seeing as we haven't heard of anyone being accidentally shot at an IDPA/SASS or whatever match...
Hell, even at the 3-gun matches where it's pretty much "big boy rules" as far as safe areas, preloading, gun carts, etc...
There haven't been any accidents AFAIK

Different strokes for different folks goes the old saying...
 
reg394 said:
CAS also takes a hard line on the 170 degree down range rule for all shooters including those who use the cross draw system. The shooter using a cross draw system must turn his body when drawing from the holster and when reholstering so that the 170 degree rule is complied with. Failure to do so results in penalties up to and including match disqualification.
A fact is, many shooters avoid shooting Cowboy Action that is governed according to SASS rules because they dislike being subjected to the discipline regarding firearms safety. Personally, I believe that CAS rules provide a very safe environment for both shooters and spectators.
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Upto and including a DQ? At most clubs when you point a gun in an unsafe direction its an automatic DQ, no ifs ands or buts about it. The fact that SASS has a sliding scale of penalties for safety related offences leaves me with one eyebrow raised.

I'm also astonished that shooters avoid SASS because they do not like being subject to discipline regarding safety...Are cowboy shooters typically of this culture? I would say other shooting sports by nature have a culture of safety engrained in each and every shooter (at least in Canada). Not to say they're aren't violations, but in nearly all cases a shooter doesn't see this as a problem with the safety rules themselves.
 
667 said:
Everyone's rules seems to work well enough for each game, seeing as we haven't heard of anyone being accidentally shot at an IDPA/SASS or whatever match...
Hell, even at the 3-gun matches where it's pretty much "big boy rules" as far as safe areas, preloading, gun carts, etc...
There haven't been any accidents AFAIK

Different strokes for different folks goes the old saying...
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If I remember correctly 2 people have shot themselves during IDPA club matches.

One in B.C. and one in AB.

Regardless, I agree with you........ 'different strokes'.

Taking shots at the safety procedures used by the various shooting disciplines is childish and counter-productive.

John
 
John in B.C. said:
What evidence?

John
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Cariboo Lefty said:
Stormbringer
What evidence would that be?
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Am I and Onagoth the only ones actually reading this thread?

Demanding that carts be set up such that the ONLY way you can store them in in a vertical mode is frankly quite assinine. To get in that postion you must transit an angle that bisects peoples skulls as opposed to their ankles which is to say to say problematic.

Allowing holsters that point backwards is yet another problem. Yet now we find out that pointing a gun in an unsafe direction has sliding punishment.?? really?

Note: Lone drones "assault cart" has vertical racks that I built so I am not anti-vertical. I am however anti "you must have them vertical"
 
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John in B.C. said:
Taking shots at the safety procedures used by the various shooting disciplines is childish and counter-productive.
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allow me to emphatically and respectfully disagree.......

If there is an aspect that is ill concieved then it is imperative that it be pointed out.

We had a similar discussion this past summer concerning another "action" game which was (and is) fraught with problems (from my perspective).

If problems are not pointed out and discussed......how can one expect to fix them?
 
stormbringer said:
allow me to emphatically and respectfully disagree.......

If there is an aspect that is ill concieved then it is imperative that it be pointed out.

We had a similar discussion this past summer concerning another "action" game which was (and is) fraught with problems (from my perspective).

If problems are not pointed out and discussed......how can one expect to fix them?
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Amazing. SASS is one of the most popular shooting sports in NA and because they do some things differently then others they are wrong. Really! The rules of each sport vary deal with it. If you don't like the rules don't play. Long guns with their breaches open and unloaded aren't any more dangerous than a piece of pipe. Folks are uncomfortable about having a strangers gun pointed at them during transitioning from the cart to the line. In SASS they feel it is important to lesson the chances of this happening by having the rule they have. Should be something that is easy to understand. Why get worked up about it.

IDPA will provide a warning to a shooter for a finger violation while IPSC rules call for a DQ. Is IPSC safer than IDPA because of this variation. Some say yes some say no. Depends on which sport you happen to play for the most part. Less movement and a scoring system that tends to favour accuracy over speed plays a part in the formulation of rules and how the game is played.

John made a good, such discussions are counter productive and have little to no impact on the sports in question. You aren't going to be shooting a SASS event using a cart with the muzzle down, simple. So why break out in a sweat.

I know of no sport that isn't concerned about the safety of the participants.

Take Care

Bob
 
IMO, all shooting sports have a vested interest in the safety of all others because of the role of the CFO. Muzzle up or down I'm not too concerned but cross draws can be dangerous, especially if shooters aren't DQ'd for violations
 
John in B.C. said:
If I remember correctly 2 people have shot themselves during IDPA club matches.

One in B.C. and one in AB.
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I don't care if you shoot yourself... It's the shooting of innocent by-standers that I find unacceptable.

I've witnessed a guy shoot himself at an club IPSC night... No big deal. Ambulance carted him off, Police attended took some info. and that was it... No consequences.

Situation would have panned out differently I'm sure had the guy shot the RO or someone else.
 
stormbringer said:
allow me to emphatically and respectfully disagree.......

If there is an aspect that is ill concieved then it is imperative that it be pointed out.

We had a similar discussion this past summer concerning another "action" game which was (and is) fraught with problems (from my perspective).

If problems are not pointed out and discussed......how can one expect to fix them?
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Standing on the outside looking in lots of things look crazy. Before I was involved in IDPA and IPSC the thought of moving with a loaded handgun in my hands, with the safety OFF!!!, would have struck as me as absolutely NUTS!!!!!! After shooting both sports I know that not only is it not nuts, it can be done safely and very quickly.

If SASS has a rule saying all long arms must be carried muzzle up - cool. If you attend a match and see how their range procedures work I believe you would see it has value in the context of their game. And....that is the rule....period. There is nothing unsafe in how they do it.

Several years ago I attended a CAS match because I wanted to see how they did things. What I saw was a bunch of guys and gals having a lot of fun using firearms safely. I saw several competitors using crossdraw holsters. as far as I could see they weren't sweeping themselves or anyone else, carrying, drawing or drinking coffee.

Point is - sitting on the outside looking in taking shots is not constructive, it's not helpful to anyone or anything. If you are really interested in making informed comment attend a match or two and see for yourself. If you are unsure of some of the safety aspects perhaps you can ask the participants there and they can help you out.

If you sincerely believe there are legitimate safety issues with how these matches are conducted then perhaps taking such an approach would bear fruit. I can guarantee you one thing - posting comments here will have exactly zero impact on how SASS conducts its matches. They have a very large organization with over 75,000 members, more than 500 SASS affiliated clubs in all fifty states and 18 foreign countries. Whatever they are doing sure is working for them.

Anyhow.....I say again......taking shots at someone else's discipline is very poor form. If you have never played the game...or even attended a match...........??????? I really don't see how your comments carry a lot of weight.

John
 
I'll chime in here and say that I am a cross-draw fan.
In my case, I feel it is safer than drawing with the weak hand and transfering a loaded revolver to the strong hand.
Dropping a loaded gun under SASS rules is a match DQ.
Dropping an unloaded firearm is a stage DQ.
In the cross-draw I do, a little "foot dance" is necessary, to keep the muzzle down range during the draw and the arm and elbow of the weak side must be raised to prevent sweeping yourself. Quite easy to learn.
The removal of long guns from the cart muzzle up to the loading or safety table; the carrying of long guns muzzle up and either open and empty for shotguns or action closed on an empty chamber for loaded magazine rifles, has been well thought out and we feel is the safest method of transporting to the firing line.
I should point out, loading is only done at a loading table, under the control and observation of a Loading Table Officer.
 
7.62mm said:
I have never understood this myself....the safety violation is egregious enough to warrant a stage dq, but not so egregious to get a match dq...the sliding rule of safety...kinda scary really!
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During club matches does your club match dq for every infraction or do they use stage dq's ?

John
 
John in B.C. said:
During club matches does your club match dq for every infraction or do they use stage dq's ?

John
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I can't speak for others in my club, I have always, and will always match dq! Apparently, I have a bit of a reputation! I my view, you are doing no one any favours by letting people slide on established safety principles! be it IPSC, IDPA, SASS Rules. The four rules of firearm safety developed by Col. Cooper are my guiding principles. Allowing those principles to slide is a dangerous situation...imho!
 
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