- Location
- The Conservative part of Ontario
Cartridge too long.. Handloading issues and solutions. Range Page 2 & 3 44-40WCF
I'm not going into this pretending to be some sort of hand loading guru. Anyone who thinks he is is looking for trouble IMO.
However, I thought I'd share a few things I've picked up over time with the new reloaders here, and bounce some ideas off the old pros while I'm at it.
The issue for this thread is how to fix an issue where the assembled load is too long for the rifle in question.
This could be a feeding issue, where the cartridge hangs up because of it's length, or, it could be that the bullet hits the lands.
The are a few things you can do.
Dealing with either cast, or jacketed bullets, you can simply seat the bullet deeper, and if you need to crimp, use a collet device like the Lee Factory crimp die to position the crimp.
However, there are those of us who use tubular magazine rifles that need a substantial crimp to stop the bullets being shoved into the case by the combined forces of the tube magazine spring, and recoil. Add to that the typical thin brass of older cartridges, and it's a serious issue. Some rifles however, like the model '94 Winchester will feed a case even if the bullet is shoved completely inside. But I digress.
Before we get into this discussion, it needs to be said that the alterations we will be performing will absolutely without a doubt RAISE PRESSURE, it could even raise pressure to DANGEROUS levels depending on what you are working with.
WHY?
Three things.
1, you are using a bullet longer than usual that means it is most likely heavier. (not always, depending on bullet shape) This increase in mass means that a given powder charge has to work harder to get it moving.
2 You are using a bullet that is longer, that may (again not always, depending on bullet shape in this case) mean that it has a longer bearing length. Bearing length being that portion of the bullet than rides on the barrel as the bullet is pushed through the bore. Increasing bearing length, again, makes it harder for the powder gasses to move the bullet and raises pressure.
3. Using a heavier bullet means that the extra mass has to be located either outside or inside the case, or a portion of each. If it is outside, it either lengthens the bullet, or fattens it's profile more towards the round nose side of things. This can play havoc with the distance to the lands, even jam into them. If the mass is inside the case, it reduces powder capacity. Reduced powder capacity, depending on the powder used, and other variables can raise pressures substantially. You need to rework your loads from a safe level.
In addition to the three above, it should be stated that some new bullets are made of or jacketed with materials other than gilding metal (eg: copper). Most of these bullet materials raise pressure at least to some degree by their increased friction with the barrel. Lead bullets however being much easier to push tend to reduce pressure for a given bullet weight and charge, this also can result in a lead bullet flying at a faster speed than a jacketed bullet of the same weight for a given charge. (The word "Can" is in bold, because other variables are at play here. Cast bullets can be very hard indeed, some use gas checks, some do not, hard lead may not seal the barrel, depending on bullet fit to bore, soft lead may 'bump up' and seal the bore, or not, depending on the powder used, either hard or soft can lead the bore depending on other variables to many to get in to here)
Ok, so what I'm working with today is a model '92 Winchester with a cartridge that will not feed due to it's length.
As I previously mentioned, I could just seat the bullet deeper, and that will work, except for the possibility of bullets being pushed back into the case. Even crimping into the lead above the crimp groove is not successful in this case. (tried it).
Using a Lee Factory crimp die to crimp doesn't work here either, as the die is based on crimping the case at the case mouth by known case lengths. It results in a crimp where there is no groove, and with the weak cases the 44-40 has, it slips.
So, we move to the next step. Case modification.
Here we have a pic of three 44-40 assembled cartridges (dummy rounds)
The cartridge on the left is one with the traditional 44-40 200 grain cast bullet.
The one next to it is the new 250 grain bullet seated in the un-altered case. Note how much longer it is than the traditional bullet. Just long enough to tie up either a '92 Winchester, or a 94 Marlin.
The right cartridge is the completed mockup. with the case trimmed to a shorter length enabling a crimp into the crimp groove and a strong hold on the bullet.
Figuring out how much to trim is easy. Simply take the length of the too long cartridge, and subtract the length of the max OAL given in your handloading manual (Yes, you should get one of those)
Alternatively you can measure the length of the cartridge that does feed and use that.
Take the resulting measurement and subtract that from the trim to length given in your manual. (alternately you could subtract it from the length of a once fired case)
You now have the length of the "new" case you are about to create.
You can now trim the case to that length. I just trimmed a bit measured, and trimmed a bit more, going slow and careful, until I had the right length. There are other ways to get it right, but that's what I did. I wasted one case doing this going a bit too far.
I locked in the length on my RCBS case trimmer I then assembled and measured a few dummy rounds and cycled them through my 1892 to check feeding, (perfect!) and proceeded to trim 50 cases for development work on the load.
Crimp? How the hell do you crimp a case that is shorter than it's supposed to be? I'll let you guys discuss that while I go play with what I have so far. I have a plan, I hope yours is better.
I'm not going into this pretending to be some sort of hand loading guru. Anyone who thinks he is is looking for trouble IMO.
However, I thought I'd share a few things I've picked up over time with the new reloaders here, and bounce some ideas off the old pros while I'm at it.
The issue for this thread is how to fix an issue where the assembled load is too long for the rifle in question.
This could be a feeding issue, where the cartridge hangs up because of it's length, or, it could be that the bullet hits the lands.
The are a few things you can do.
Dealing with either cast, or jacketed bullets, you can simply seat the bullet deeper, and if you need to crimp, use a collet device like the Lee Factory crimp die to position the crimp.
However, there are those of us who use tubular magazine rifles that need a substantial crimp to stop the bullets being shoved into the case by the combined forces of the tube magazine spring, and recoil. Add to that the typical thin brass of older cartridges, and it's a serious issue. Some rifles however, like the model '94 Winchester will feed a case even if the bullet is shoved completely inside. But I digress.
Before we get into this discussion, it needs to be said that the alterations we will be performing will absolutely without a doubt RAISE PRESSURE, it could even raise pressure to DANGEROUS levels depending on what you are working with.
WHY?
Three things.
1, you are using a bullet longer than usual that means it is most likely heavier. (not always, depending on bullet shape) This increase in mass means that a given powder charge has to work harder to get it moving.
2 You are using a bullet that is longer, that may (again not always, depending on bullet shape in this case) mean that it has a longer bearing length. Bearing length being that portion of the bullet than rides on the barrel as the bullet is pushed through the bore. Increasing bearing length, again, makes it harder for the powder gasses to move the bullet and raises pressure.
3. Using a heavier bullet means that the extra mass has to be located either outside or inside the case, or a portion of each. If it is outside, it either lengthens the bullet, or fattens it's profile more towards the round nose side of things. This can play havoc with the distance to the lands, even jam into them. If the mass is inside the case, it reduces powder capacity. Reduced powder capacity, depending on the powder used, and other variables can raise pressures substantially. You need to rework your loads from a safe level.
In addition to the three above, it should be stated that some new bullets are made of or jacketed with materials other than gilding metal (eg: copper). Most of these bullet materials raise pressure at least to some degree by their increased friction with the barrel. Lead bullets however being much easier to push tend to reduce pressure for a given bullet weight and charge, this also can result in a lead bullet flying at a faster speed than a jacketed bullet of the same weight for a given charge. (The word "Can" is in bold, because other variables are at play here. Cast bullets can be very hard indeed, some use gas checks, some do not, hard lead may not seal the barrel, depending on bullet fit to bore, soft lead may 'bump up' and seal the bore, or not, depending on the powder used, either hard or soft can lead the bore depending on other variables to many to get in to here)
Ok, so what I'm working with today is a model '92 Winchester with a cartridge that will not feed due to it's length.
As I previously mentioned, I could just seat the bullet deeper, and that will work, except for the possibility of bullets being pushed back into the case. Even crimping into the lead above the crimp groove is not successful in this case. (tried it).
Using a Lee Factory crimp die to crimp doesn't work here either, as the die is based on crimping the case at the case mouth by known case lengths. It results in a crimp where there is no groove, and with the weak cases the 44-40 has, it slips.
So, we move to the next step. Case modification.
Here we have a pic of three 44-40 assembled cartridges (dummy rounds)
The cartridge on the left is one with the traditional 44-40 200 grain cast bullet.
The one next to it is the new 250 grain bullet seated in the un-altered case. Note how much longer it is than the traditional bullet. Just long enough to tie up either a '92 Winchester, or a 94 Marlin.
The right cartridge is the completed mockup. with the case trimmed to a shorter length enabling a crimp into the crimp groove and a strong hold on the bullet.
Figuring out how much to trim is easy. Simply take the length of the too long cartridge, and subtract the length of the max OAL given in your handloading manual (Yes, you should get one of those)
Alternatively you can measure the length of the cartridge that does feed and use that.
Take the resulting measurement and subtract that from the trim to length given in your manual. (alternately you could subtract it from the length of a once fired case)
You now have the length of the "new" case you are about to create.
You can now trim the case to that length. I just trimmed a bit measured, and trimmed a bit more, going slow and careful, until I had the right length. There are other ways to get it right, but that's what I did. I wasted one case doing this going a bit too far.
I locked in the length on my RCBS case trimmer I then assembled and measured a few dummy rounds and cycled them through my 1892 to check feeding, (perfect!) and proceeded to trim 50 cases for development work on the load.
Crimp? How the hell do you crimp a case that is shorter than it's supposed to be? I'll let you guys discuss that while I go play with what I have so far. I have a plan, I hope yours is better.
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