Anybody know of a Canadian source for factory 45-70 gov't loaded with plain lead, non-jacketed bullet's? I have a trapdoor that I would like to put a few rounds through occasionally, but apparently using jacketed bullet's in this rifle is a big no-no. Hard on the rifling in the old barrel's that are made of softer steel so I'm told (steel that is softer than copper presumably?). I've found factory ammo loaded light enough for the Springfield, but all of it has jacketed bullets. What's a poor, non-reloading shmuck like me to do?
Commercial Ammo for Springfield Trapdoor?
- Thread starter 2strklvr
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antiqueguy
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- windsor ontario
its one you have to load for if its a antique trapdoor you will want black powder loads with soft cast bullets
and yes jacketed bullets are a no go the barrels are softer nd will wear alot faster also not every bullet uses a copper jacket alot of them have steel or other really hard alloy in the jacket
and yes jacketed bullets are a no go the barrels are softer nd will wear alot faster also not every bullet uses a copper jacket alot of them have steel or other really hard alloy in the jacket
If by "a few" you mean only a box or two, just to see what it's like to shoot the old gal, then don't worry that jacketed bullets will bugger it up. A steady diet of them would be a bad idea, but a few won't hurt.
Remington 300 grain and 405 grain factory loads, as well as Winchester 300 grainers, are safe in trapdoors. They are purpously loaded to safe trapdoor pressures.
Remington 300 grain and 405 grain factory loads, as well as Winchester 300 grainers, are safe in trapdoors. They are purpously loaded to safe trapdoor pressures.
antiqueguy
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- windsor ontario
no modern jacketed ammo is safe in a pre 1898 antique trapdoor if you have ever heard of a snider action blowing upen well the trap door will do the same (the snider is alot harder to blow open BTW) over pressure ammo will not be a good idea
black powder loads are easy enough to make up you dont even need reloading equipment
mark you cases to index them then prime (a wood dowel can be used inside the case and any flat serfice free of dirt ect) then a BP meauser is used to measure the powder a wad over the powder to compress the powder then thumb seat the bullet
a lee loader works well enough too and they are cheap
I was told that so long as the commercial ammo said "For use in all rifles" on the box that it was a light load and safe to use in a Springfield Trapdoor. Same guy was the one that had said the real concern was the jacketed bullet's wearing the bore.
FWIW - a couple of boxes (40-ish rounds) through the gun would be the max that I would be shooting over the course of the next few years. By then I should be set up for re-loading.
However I was really hoping to find a Canadian source for some factory "cowboy" ammo, something like the Black Hills stuff that comes with lead bullets.
FWIW - a couple of boxes (40-ish rounds) through the gun would be the max that I would be shooting over the course of the next few years. By then I should be set up for re-loading.
However I was really hoping to find a Canadian source for some factory "cowboy" ammo, something like the Black Hills stuff that comes with lead bullets.
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antiqueguy
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- windsor ontario
id stay away from jacketed bullets again not all are copper and factory ammo loaded with them will be a very bad idea as you dont know what the jacket is made of
you really dont need much for reloading this cal in this gun read above as long as you compress the powder with the wad you can thumb seat the bullets witch is just that pushing the bullet into the case with ones thumb you need fire formed cases through also you will need to index the cases the same way each time
hang it on the wall untill you can load for it the barrels on these old guns are dead soft also they are ment for blackpowder not smokeless they have different pressure curves and i will say this stay away from trailboss its alot worse
I for one do not believe that jacketed bullets cause any significant wear on early barrels. I used to own a model 86 in 40 - 82 which I shot 2 or 300 jacket bullets through before trading it off. I couldn't see any sign of excessive wear. Perhaps if I have shot several thousands shots maybe, but I would probably see some wear from lead bullets too. And for those of you who are on your toes, I shot .410 jacketed 41 mag slugs because the gun was made with an oversize bore (which should have been .407) The barrel had sharp deep rifling but enough pitting that lead did not work very well. And for those who say that the bore diameter is proof of wear, I would point out that there can be significant variation in antique barrels apparently because of quality control. Worst I had was a 38-40 with a bore of .410 instead of . 401 with sharp deep unpitted rifling.
As to loads which are unsafe in older 45-70s, I have no proof but would be nervous of shooting the new leverution (sp) 45-70 shells in an old gun because they appear to be a hot load intended for modern Marlin rifles. I don't recall the box giving any pressures on it.
cheers mooncoon
As to loads which are unsafe in older 45-70s, I have no proof but would be nervous of shooting the new leverution (sp) 45-70 shells in an old gun because they appear to be a hot load intended for modern Marlin rifles. I don't recall the box giving any pressures on it.
cheers mooncoon
+P, Lever Revolution, etc, ammunition would be a bad idea in Trapdoor, Stevens and the other weaker antiques. The popularity of .45-70 in modern rifles is the reason for these enhanced loads. For years, the only .45-70 ammunition on the market was the low velocity 405 grain jacketed soft point. The makers knew it was being used in the antiques, and loaded it accordingly.
If you study the various loading manuals, there will be different sections of loads - for weaker antiques like the Trapdoor, medium strength ones like the Marlins, and strong ones like the Ruger No. 1.
If you study the various loading manuals, there will be different sections of loads - for weaker antiques like the Trapdoor, medium strength ones like the Marlins, and strong ones like the Ruger No. 1.
antiqueguy
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- windsor ontario
most bullets now have a cupro nickel jacket and most factory loads are made for modern guns and lever guns the trapdoor is not a strong action by any means its easy to have the breech to pop open on the early models even plated bullets would be a better idea then most jacketed bullets
Obviously appropriate ammunition must be used.
+P ammunition would be a bad idea in Trapdoors, Stevens tip ups, etc.
Cupronickel? No. Cupronickel was abandonned for bullet jackets in North America generations ago. Terrible stuff. Copper fouling is bad enough, nickel is much worse.
Horse sh1t
I can't rmember anyone here that was wrong about stuff like this as often as you are
Just my two shekels, but IF IT WERE ME, I would not worry about a few rounds of factory ammo thru a TD IN GOOD CONDITION. I'd just be sure I was getting the loads which are meant for the task. Iirc, the old Remington factory rounds were loaded sub-1300fps and used very thin copper jackets. But as has been cautioned above, be sure you stay away from anything meant solely for modern guns. Personally, I'd be leery of any loads with bullets weighing less than 405 as it could be a tip off that they are hot. If in doubt, have somebody shoot a couple over a chrony.
I got curious; gilding material appears to range from 98 / 2 % to 95 / 5% copper / zinc alloy. Longer thinner bullets apparently favor the 98/2 because it can be drawn out longer with less annealing between stages
cheers mooncoon
cheers mooncoon
Well, I have to chime in here. Sorry to say that there is information that is not 100% correct...most of what anitqueguy is posting seems to be intended to ensure that someone does not try to use ammunition that is not suited for the trapdoor action. This is a cautionary statement by that poster and contains, in some part, reality. However there are exceptions. before I go any further I have to say that I have been using the Springfield Trapdoor in Black powder competition and long range matches since the late 1970's. As a result there are a lot of awards on the wall attributed to the both the guns and the loads I have been feeding them...the Trapdoor can shoot and does shoot incredibly well with the proper loads.
As for factory loads in the trapdoor...most light bullet factory loads are thoroughly unsafe for the trapdoor as they are high velocity and high pressure cartridges. Before choosing a factory load, check the manufacturers data sheets...a lot of them give pressures and velocities. Look for 405 grain ammunition with a sub 1500 FPS velocity and pressure under 18,000 c.u.p. Most, if not all, 405 grains bullets are copper jacketed, though some may contain other alloys lending them to higher velocity loadings. Extensive use of jacketed bullets in the old trapdoor may cause a few problems. Though what I have seen regarding bore damage over the years is most likely related to the use of smokeless powder, not jacketed bullets.
There is minor problem with jacketed bullets in the trapdoor...they are too small in diameter. Even though dimensionally the trapdoor 45-70 is bored to 0.458", the nominal size of jacketed 45-70 bullets can be 0.457" and rarely any larger. After a century of use the bore of trapdoor will be worn to the point of measuring .0460 to 0.462. There will be considerable gas loss in the barrel when smokeless powder is used under a jacketed bullet in the trapdoor...this is experience, not theory talking. With cast lead bullets I was using a larger size (0.461") with a felt wad in loads with both black powder and smokeless powder. The trapdoors I used this in shot circles around the high priced shoulder dis-locators and their kind...thus a wall full of shooting awards.
So...what is the answer to the OP's question about factory loads safe int eh trapdoor??? Do your research first then choose the right factory load combination that will be safe in your gun then moderate your shooting to limit wear on the barrel. If the trapdoor is a pristine 95% plus original finish gun then I will beat you with a stick for shooting it, you do not want to what I would do if you broke it!!!!
However if it is a 40 to 60% gun, then have fun, and don't forget to post pics
As for factory loads in the trapdoor...most light bullet factory loads are thoroughly unsafe for the trapdoor as they are high velocity and high pressure cartridges. Before choosing a factory load, check the manufacturers data sheets...a lot of them give pressures and velocities. Look for 405 grain ammunition with a sub 1500 FPS velocity and pressure under 18,000 c.u.p. Most, if not all, 405 grains bullets are copper jacketed, though some may contain other alloys lending them to higher velocity loadings. Extensive use of jacketed bullets in the old trapdoor may cause a few problems. Though what I have seen regarding bore damage over the years is most likely related to the use of smokeless powder, not jacketed bullets.
There is minor problem with jacketed bullets in the trapdoor...they are too small in diameter. Even though dimensionally the trapdoor 45-70 is bored to 0.458", the nominal size of jacketed 45-70 bullets can be 0.457" and rarely any larger. After a century of use the bore of trapdoor will be worn to the point of measuring .0460 to 0.462. There will be considerable gas loss in the barrel when smokeless powder is used under a jacketed bullet in the trapdoor...this is experience, not theory talking. With cast lead bullets I was using a larger size (0.461") with a felt wad in loads with both black powder and smokeless powder. The trapdoors I used this in shot circles around the high priced shoulder dis-locators and their kind...thus a wall full of shooting awards.
So...what is the answer to the OP's question about factory loads safe int eh trapdoor??? Do your research first then choose the right factory load combination that will be safe in your gun then moderate your shooting to limit wear on the barrel. If the trapdoor is a pristine 95% plus original finish gun then I will beat you with a stick for shooting it, you do not want to what I would do if you broke it!!!!
However if it is a 40 to 60% gun, then have fun, and don't forget to post pics
NorthCoastBigBore
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Northwest BC (Rural) 103-I-##
Used a LEE Loader for my first .45-70 loads - BP included. They work just fine.
TRY not to flich the first time you seat the bullet
NorthCoastBigBore
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Northwest BC (Rural) 103-I-##
Used a LEE Loader for my first .45-70 loads - BP included. They work just fine.
TRY not to flich the first time you seat the bullet
Or hammer in the primer.....
YEAH the first time you seat the primer you sweat a bit
