Can someone tell me what's up with RC K98's?

Tinman204

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Hi guys and gals!

Before I get on with this post I'll have to say that I'm a .303 guy mostly with 2 enfields and a Ross.
I own one Mauser a Turkish m38, I really like it so I'm trying to learn more about other mausers.

I keep seeing posts about RC K98's, can someone fill me in about why they are so popular and valuable? Is it the rarity, historical importance, or are they just fine shooters? is it the fact that they are original German guns that can be had at a slightly lower price?

Anyhow any info would be nice, please forgive my ignorance. There's so many types of Mauser that it's overwhelming trying to figure out what the differences are.
 
It's quite simple there's no more available. They aren't rare the Russians captured millions and refurbed them all, they aren't any better shooter then other 8mm mausers and at the going prices they aren't cheaper then the real German ones.
 
They definitely are cheaper then originals. RCs offer people a chance to get a year or code they desire without waiting forever for an original.

That have lots of history, and are still german mausers from ww2.
 
That have lots of history, and are still german mausers from ww2.
And getting harder to find one that bubba hasn't f**ked with!
These are the last that are not hidden in collectors safes offered as milsurp. There are no more hidden stashes just waiting to be discovered.
They all got used in Germany to full capacity during WWII.
 
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Well it's been fun boys. The wine is kicking in and my philosophy is wearing thin.

We need to start an RC parts swapping thread. I can see the one I'm getting has a few parts that are not correct to the year and code of the rifle.
We could always undo a little what Ivan did and swap those heavily shellacked and painted parts. Auf Wiedersehen
 
You're right. At least ivan thought ahead. And at these prices he's cleaning up!


Ivan refurbished these rifles as a make work program for their forced labor camps and also to arm the plebes around the world, when the rose up against their oppressors. They were virtually free, well made and functional firearms that take little training to operate by illiterate troops.

The Soviets and many other nations, stacked these firearms out in the open for years in many cases. They burned huge piles of them to separate the wood from the iron. Refurbishing them was an afterthought.

Many are very pleased they did have the afterthought though.
 
After WWII the bolt action was considered redundant. Bolts were removed when the Germans surrendered and both weapons and bolts tossed into different piles.
These weapons unfortunately were treated roughly and most likely dumped from trucks into piles at depots and like bearhunter said, left in the open to rot away for years.

Speaking of the plebs, that includes the Israelis, China and some 3rd world countries that the Soviets sold these. Now they arrive in North America 1st world countries for profit. These old battered mixed up Mausers command more a premium than a refurbed Mosin sniper! Interesting times and are we the new plebs?
 
And there is also the element of lost glory or whatever attached to the weapons of the losing side, some aura which seems to raise them up above the rest, at least when it comes to pricing. It is much the same with the 98s from the Ostfront as it is for Civil War Enfields.

Just for yuks, let's imagine a rack holding a bunch of '58 Enfields. They are all a bit beat-up, more or less, and they all have a story to tell. It is how romantic the world sees that story which determines how the specimen will be regarded in the marketplace. That..... and how much can be proven or, at the very least, inferred about them.

So the first one was picked up at Gettysburg, about 100 yards short of the Northern trench line. It is fully attested and provenanced, including a letter from Colonel Norman J. Hall to the effect that it was taken from the body of one of Armistead's men following the repulse of Pickett's Charge. The stock is punched on the butt: CS. The discolouration on the woodwork around the lock is blood of the Confederate soldier who carried it. Value?

The second one is a little better condition but the wood is drying and it has surface rusting from standing too long in the barn. All that is known about it is that it was bought from Bannerman's in 1906 for 2 dollars and that Great-Grandpaw used it for killing pigs on the farm. It has US punched into the butt. Value?

The third one stayed in England and was converted into a breechloader in 1866 with a funny trap-door mechanism marked "Snider's Patent" and then it was sent somewhere else to continue in military service. It is about as rusty as you would expect of something which has been neglected for most of the time since it was sold off for scrap, although there is not much evidence of outright abuse. There are funny stampings in the wood (M&D in one sport, DC in a diamond in another spot and there are letters and numbers punched into the butt tang. Value?

The fourth one is just like the third except that it is marked on the metal NSM with a number, the trap-door has a little latch and the lock is dated 1867. But it has no M&D or DC-in-a-diamond. Value?

And the fifth one rightly can't be called an Enfield because it is marked TOWER 1857. It, also, stood for most of a century up in the rafters of a barn and it has the rust to prove it. It is still a muzzleloader. Bubba got at it once but didn't do anything which can't be undone in an hour of careful work (little bit of damage at the muzzle). Value?

Let's see what values people come up with for those ones.

Then ask yourself where that beat-up Russian Capture Kar 98k came from. Velikiy Luki? The Kettle? Stalingrad? Kursk? Warsaw? Berlin?

The more which can be substantiated the better.

The more which can be inferred directly, the better. A late-1943 rifle will not have been a Stalingrad capture because it hadn't been made yet..... but a 1937 certainly could have been captured in Berlin on the last day of the War.

But good or evil, popular or unpopular, politically-correct or otherwise, they all are remnants of a Lost Cause. In many cases, they are all that remains of that cause. They have an aura about them which the weapons of the winners don't have because they represent the what-might-have-been as opposed to the winners' weapons which represent the what-is. As collectors and practical historians, we have taken upon ourselves the duty of preserving them all for the future.

Gentlemen: your comments kindly.

(And your values: I'm curious!)
 
So the first one was picked up at Gettysburg, about 100 yards short of the Northern trench line. It is fully attested and provenanced, including a letter from Colonel Norman J. Hall to the effect that it was taken from the body of one of Armistead's men following the repulse of Pickett's Charge. The stock is punched on the butt: CS. The discolouration on the woodwork around the lock is blood of the Confederate soldier who carried it. Value? $25,000

The second one is a little better condition but the wood is drying and it has surface rusting from standing too long in the barn. All that is known about it is that it was bought from Bannerman's in 1906 for 2 dollars and that Great-Grandpaw used it for killing pigs on the farm. It has US punched into the butt. Value? $1,500

The third one stayed in England and was converted into a breechloader in 1866 with a funny trap-door mechanism marked "Snider's Patent" and then it was sent somewhere else to continue in military service. It is about as rusty as you would expect of something which has been neglected for most of the time since it was sold off for scrap, although there is not much evidence of outright abuse. There are funny stampings in the wood (M&D in one sport, DC in a diamond in another spot and there are letters and numbers punched into the butt tang. Value? $800

The fourth one is just like the third except that it is marked on the metal NSM with a number, the trap-door has a little latch and the lock is dated 1867. But it has no M&D or DC-in-a-diamond. Value? $1,000

And the fifth one rightly can't be called an Enfield because it is marked TOWER 1857. It, also, stood for most of a century up in the rafters of a barn and it has the rust to prove it. It is still a muzzleloader. Bubba got at it once but didn't do anything which can't be undone in an hour of careful work (little bit of damage at the muzzle). Value? Not a clue

Let's see what values people come up with for those ones.

Then ask yourself where that beat-up Russian Capture Kar 98k came from. Velikiy Luki? The Kettle? Stalingrad? Kursk? Warsaw? Berlin?


(And your values: I'm curious!)



How did I do?
 
On the RC K98k... I've written on these fairly prolifically, but since I am lazy tonight, I'll cut and paste my standard RC K98k post from milsurps.com for y'all:

CAUTION: How do I tell if I have a rebuilt RC (Russian Capture) and not an original unaltered K98k?

Russian Capture K98k's all share similar traits. The are all WW2 era German Karabiners (though some are former Gew98's the Nazis had converted to K98k spec - rare though!). Most have matching receiver and barrel.

When the Russians came into these guns they stockpiled them and promptly began doing other more important things like rebuilding their cities, etc. Many RC rifles sat for month or even years exposed to the elements. By the late 1940's, many of these rifles were in an advanced state of deterioration, while some remained like new.

In true Russian style, a colossal public make-work project was undertaken. The ENTIRE inventory of German small arms then in Russian possession (roughly half the total wartime output of Nazi Germany's arms production) was ordered to undergo refurbishment and as many useable arms as possible to be made ready. Why? Russia was paranoid. The Cold War was freezing over and Russia feared invasion from the West. Also, it was a cheap source of arms they could export to allies in North Korea, Cuba, Vietnam, and every other wanna-be commi armpit of the world without depleting their "front line" weapons stockpiles.

The Russians took all their K98k's, and totally disassembled them except for the barrel. Bores were inspected and those found to be acceptable (ie, some pitting OK - so long as it's still safely shootable, much like with their refurbed Mosins) were set aside. Those that were deemed too far gone were recycled into steel for tractor parts or Order of Lennin medals, or whatever.

The small parts were all hot-dip reblued. Rusty parts were wire brushed or sandblasted first. These were placed indiscriminately in bins. The stocks were also inspected for serviceability. Those deemed acceptable were retained, those unacceptable were burned.

When the rifles were re-assembled no effort was made to match parts. A new (used) bolt was assembled and fitted to the receiver and the whole affair was assembled into a rifle from the binned parts. When done, most parts were electropencilled with the rifle's serial number and a flat was sanded on the left side of the wood stock (think big belt sander and half-drunk worker). The rifle's serial number was stamped there running parallel to the rifle's bore line. (Yugos are stamped perpendicular, for comparison)

Once complete, the whole rifle was generally painted in cheap shellac as a preservative agent - these are often not cosmolened for some reason - crated up and sent to war reserve, especially in the frontier states like Ukraine (which stored them in underground "nuclear proof" depleted salt mines). Today, cash strapped former Soviet states are all too happy to sell these to us.

It's difficult to say what percentage of captured arms survived the rebuild programs, but I'd imagine maybe half (or less) would be a good guess. Many of these arms sat out in the open for LONG periods of time before being rebuilt, so attrition due to the elements was probably a factor.

It's also wrong to assume that RC's are, in fact, "captures". At any given moment, less than 2 million Nazi troops would have served on the Russian front. Not all would have had K98K's. Over 14 Million K98k's were built and most experts agree that somewhere around 7 million likely ended up in Russian hands after the war. Throughout the whole war, it's doubtful a full 7 million K98k's traveled to east Prussia and beyond.

When Nazi Germany surrendered to the Allies, the Whermacht assembled at depots all over Europe and turned in their arms. Additionally, government arms stockpiles and factories were captured and divied up by the victorious armies. At hostilities cessation, every Mauser weapon in the future East Germany (and all points east) would have become what we think of as an "RC K98k". Public ownership of guns in the USSR was banned as well. So whether a rifle was taken from a dead private in 1944 Minsk or if the NKVD knocked on a door in Berlin in 1947 and confiscated the arm from a retired volkspolitzei prison guard, it still ended up in the stocks of RC mausers. In fact, it's safe to say the MAJORITY of such guns are likely NOT battlefield captures.
 
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