Some food for thought regarding mosin accuracy and ammo.

desporterizer

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Check out the difference between ammo meant for mosin & machine gun. The 46 dated russian surplus had 52grs of powder behind a 148gr bullet & the post was lps had 47gr behind a 148gr bullet. All early ammo I have pulled had this same flat base bullet.


IMG-20130208-00376_zps2d024e99.jpg



Check out the base of the older Russian bullet


IMG-20130208-00372_zpsec61d36b.jpg


Many people seem to think that the Soviets turned out refurbs with dead barrels but I wonder how those same barrels would perform with the correct fodder?

This is how I found the charger loaded. The side you cant see well is a mirror image of this one.


IMG-20130208-00377_zps8d2a30f4.jpg
 
Check out the difference between ammo meant for mosin & machine gun. The 46 dated russian surplus had 52grs of powder behind a 148gr bullet & the post was lps had 47gr behind a 148gr bullet. All early ammo I have pulled had this same flat base bullet.

I believe the top round (boattail) was intended for use in the Maxim machine gun and the lower round was intended for use in rifles/carbines.

IMG-20130208-00376_zps2d024e99.jpg



Check out the base of the older Russian bullet


IMG-20130208-00372_zpsec61d36b.jpg


Many people seem to think that the Soviets turned out refurbs with dead barrels but I wonder how those same barrels would perform with the correct fodder?

This is how I found the charger loaded. The side you cant see well is a mirror image of this one.

That's how the charger is supposed to be loaded so the rounds go off the charger into the magazine easily. Where did you find ammo already loaded on the chargers? Does the surplus ammo usually come on the chargers?

IMG-20130208-00377_zps8d2a30f4.jpg

Nice photos BTW
 
Could you re-write your initial post and make it clear what exactly you are talking about?

I am always curious regarding Mosins and accuracy.

The Soviets used flat, open based bullets because they shoot better out of rifles that have larger groove diameters. Just like enfields. Most post war ammo was made for machine gun use & has boat tail bullets, hence mediocre accuracy.
 
I note that the older rifle bullet is a true Minie type.

This would really aid obturation (expansion to seal the bore completely) in a rifle with an iffy barrel.

It would have more base drag than a flat-base bullet but, at normal combat ranges of 500 yards/metres and under, that would make little difference. It was a really good idea and I am surprised that Russia seems to have been the only country to do it on any scale. Has anyone taken apart any of the older FINNISH ammunition to see if it conforms to this idea?

My late friend Gavin Tait had a project which went over 20 years, of seeing just HOW well he could make various old military rifles shoot. We worked together on perhaps 40 or 50 rifles over the years, all military types, and there were very few that we could not coax 1 MOA from. With very careful bedding and handloading, there is no reason that a military rifle will not shoot, and, when you are getting honest 1-MOA groups out of a century-old barrel, you tend to develop a good bit of respect for the men and women who made the things.

In our testing we worked with several Moisin-Nagant rifles, including a Finned 1907 Sestroryetsk, a Finned 1906 Tulskiy, a Finnish Dragoon Rifle and several 91/30 rifles dating between 1937 and 1943. Of the rifles we tested, ONE only had to be discarded: it had been misrepresented at time of sale and the advertised "pristine" bore was terribly pitted, to the point that it simply ripped the jackets to shreds and would NOT make better than a 10-inch group at 100 yards. ALL of the others, even century-old rifles with counterbored barrels, we could make shoot fairly well; by Gavin's standards, this meant 2 MOA or less. One thing we found is that they ALL would shoot their best with bullets in the .311 to .312 diameter range. Trying .308 bullets, as recommended in the US manuals, was a dead bust in every rifle: hopeless. But we also found that a "hopeless" rifle, when fed .312" slugs, suddenly would become an obedient pup and sit up and do tricks.

Boat-tailed bullets originally were developed to give longer ranges of suppressive or covering fire WITH MACHINE GUNS. This is a point that most people miss.

Sticking with flat-base bullets, you can make MOST older military rifles shoot their best, especially when the flat-based bullet is allied with a quicker powder. This combination will give best obturation almost every time. For normal hunting/combat ranges, this is more than sufficient.

Hope this helps.
 
Boat-tailed bullets originally were developed to give longer ranges of suppressive or covering fire WITH MACHINE GUNS. This is a point that most people miss.

Especially bullet manufacturers. It is a royal PITA that nobody makes a 174 gr spitzer with a flat base. Guess I'll have to stick with 180gr sierra's for my .303's.
 
I use the Sierra 180 when I want best accuracy out of my .303s.

Seat them out to the OAL of a Ball round: crowds the leade just a bit because the ogive is different. Rifles sure like it!

It's actually a .311" slug but it is nice and soft. If the powder is medium to quick, it boots it on the tail hard enough to upset very nicely.

Same trick exactly works with the MN, same bullet, too.

You can also do well in the LE and the MN both with the Hornady .312" 150 FB Spire Point by seating out so the whole cannelure shows proud of the case-mouth.

It is really surprising just how much you can tighten things up with a bit of experimenting.

Hope this helps.
 
@ james f:

This is your first post, so, Welcome Aboard!
You have to apply to get into th Equipment Exchange, so you do that. Takes a day or so and if you are not wanted too badly by INTERPOL, you usually get in!

Then you get into EXCHANGE OF MILITARY SURPLUS rifles and into the Parts section there. If there is nothing available that you like, you post a WTB (Want To Buy) ad. It's free.

When you have a question, come back on here and somebody will help. Always do.

Hope this helps.
 
I bought some of what I assume is the same ammo at a gunshow on the weekend. Headstamp was 188, 46 and it came in a box of 15 rounds loaded on stripper clips. We fired it out of an SVT40 and it was like a shotgun pattern. Not all of them hit paper at 100 yards but the 10 that did were at least an 8-10" spread. I have one round left that I'm going to pull the bullet on and check it out. I mostly bought it to compare the strippers to some that I already had, that I'm sure aren't Russian surplus and out of curiousity. If I remember it was $9 for 15 rounds.
 
That is Factory 188, made in 1946.

Your ammo is almost as old as I am!

DEFINITELY corrosive, so be sure to can that SVT!

Factory 188 is in Novosibirsk.

Hope this helps.
 
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