Looking to borrow .303 Go / No Go gauges

DILLIGAF

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Just bought myself a 1961 No.4 Mk2 ( POF ) from Ellwood Epps still in packing grease and was wondering if someone could lend me there gauges ( I will pay shipping of course ) :p


My first real milsurp in the safe... Couldn't be happier... will post pics when I get back from my PLQ next week....


Cheers
 
Are you worried about headspace? If the gun in questions is that new of a manufacture and is "still in the grease" I wouldn't worry too much. If the bolt and reciever are matching I say shoot it.

Also in the past I've checked headspace on a questionable Enfield by placing a new piece of brass in the chamber, and then stacking shims (can be thin metal, foil tape or whatever) on the back of the cartridge. Once I get it thick enough that the bolt just closes I take a measurement with a pair of micrometers.

I personally think that the headspace issue is blown right out of proportion. I usually fire a couple rounds and then examine the spent cases for backed out primers and things of that nature.
 
Are you worried about headspace? If the gun in questions is that new of a manufacture and is "still in the grease" I wouldn't worry too much. If the bolt and reciever are matching I say shoot it.

Also in the past I've checked headspace on a questionable Enfield by placing a new piece of brass in the chamber, and then stacking shims (can be thin metal, foil tape or whatever) on the back of the cartridge. Once I get it thick enough that the bolt just closes I take a measurement with a pair of micrometers.

I personally think that the headspace issue is blown right out of proportion. I usually fire a couple rounds and then examine the spent cases for backed out primers and things of that nature.

If the bolt and receiver numbers match...the likelihood of the headspace being out of spec is very low. Don't worry too much!
 
If you have a set of vernier calipers, a new or full length resized cartridge case and a fired spent primer you can check headspace without headspace gauges.

1. Measure the length of a new or full length resized case and write it down.

303gauge.jpg


2. Next take a fired spent primer and using your fingers start the primer into the primer pocket.

303primer.jpg


303primera.jpg


3. Now chamber this test round slowly closing the bolt and seating the primer. Now eject the case and remeasure the case and write it down. NOTE: the amount the primer is protruding from the rear of the case is called head clearance or the "air space" between the rear of the case and the bolt face.

hedspace-b.gif


4. Now subtract the first case measurement from the second case measurement and write it down.
(this will be your head clearance)

5. Now measure your rim thickness and add it to #4 above and you have your exact headspace reading.

Example:
First case measurement = 2.222
Second case measurement 2.231
Rim thickness .058

2.231 - 2.222 = .009 + .058 = .067 actual headspace reading

I have headspace gauges for the British .303 and the above method will work accurately without any gauges.

headspcegauges.jpg


You can also check headspace on the Enfield rifle with a set of feeler gauges and a chambered new or resized case and placing the feeler gauges between the right locking lug and the receiver.

ENFIELDCK-1.jpg


The feeler gauges are used to measure head clearance and is added to your rim thickness.

ENFIELDCK.jpg


It ain't rocket science or measuring light speed, its simple measurments and adding "air space".

einsteinyoyo-a.jpg
 
Great post bigedp51!!!

The other thing is fire the first round from the hip, if a small blast comes out due to excessive head space, it won't be anywhere close to your face!!!
Fire your new Enfield and have fun!!!
 
A very quick and totally dirty way to measure insane headspace----
remove bolt.
Turn bolthead 1 full turn (unscrew 1 full turn)
try to reinstall bolt--don't force it closed,it should not close.
If the bolt closes this way don't shoot the rifle.
There is a member here who was selling guages.i purchased the 3 from him...
 
Ed,
Great info, I didnt know about those methods.
One question, just how accurate are new factory rounds? What is the tolerance they are held to?
(I'll use factory ammo as I'm not sure my dies are set correct, so resized cases may give me bogus info)
 
tootall

A rimmed cartridge is easy to figure because the case rim can be measured and all you do is add the head clearance or air space behind the case to get actual headspace.

On a rimless case you need a set reference point, I normally have a GO gauge and use my Hornady cartridge case headspace gauge to measure new and fired cases and setting up my dies. I have seen new unfired cases that were .009 shorter than the GO gauge. If you add this to your actual headspace a new cartridge may have as much as .015 head clearance or air space behind the case when fired. The red and yellow areas are the high stress areas that stretch and deform when fired.

Below is a animated image of the base of the case when the cartridge is fired. Look closely at the base of the case and the head clearance or air space as the case is fired and how the case stretches to meet the bolt face.

deform.gif


Below is a Hornady Cartridge Case Headspace Gauge attached to a vernier caliper used for measuring cartridge headspace and setting up your dies for shoulder bump. The GO gauge is used for a zero reference point to get accurate readings of new and fired cases.

Picture009.jpg


Below is Innovative Technologies cartridge headspace gauge, the gauge again is used for bumping the should of the case back when resizing.

headspacegauge_zpsd630709a.jpg


All that really matters is knowing how much air space you have behind your cases, and this can be checked with a spent primer.

HEADCLEARANCE-a.jpg


Your head clearance will cause the case to stretch and cause case head separations, and this can be controlled by shoulder location of the resized case.

headspacestretch-c.gif


zeroheadspace.jpg


Types of cartridge headspacing methods.

Headspace_2_lg.jpg

Headspace_1_lg.jpg
 
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Ed,
Great info, I didnt know about those methods.
One question, just how accurate are new factory rounds? What is the tolerance they are held to?
(I'll use factory ammo as I'm not sure my dies are set correct, so resized cases may give me bogus info)

The military .303 Enfield rifle has larger headspace standards than commercial SAAMI standards.

Below is a surplus military .303 cartridge in a Wilson Cartridge Case Gauge, the rim is just below minimum cartridge headspace length. This is how any type unfired cartridge case should fit in a Wilson gauge, the reference lines on top of the gauge are minimum and maximum headspace used for resizing the case.

mil-surp.jpg


Below is a new unfired Remington .303 British case, the shoulder of the case is 1/4 of an inch short of the proper location.

short.jpg


Below is a fired case in the Wilson gauge, the amount the case is sticking above the gauge is how much longer the Enfield chamber is compared to a civilian .303 chamber. The Military Enfield chamber is larger in diameter and longer (shoulder location) to ensure a cartridge will chamber under combat conditions.

100_1637.jpg


"just how accurate are new factory rounds?"

It depends on what day of the week the cases are made and if the QC inspector is on break!
There is a reason why compeditive shooters use Finnish made Lupua cases and that is quality.

308fail-1.jpg


308fail2-1.jpg
 
For the folks who are interested, I have measured various casings until my eyes crossed.

The most CONSISTENT .303 ammo I have encountered is that made by Defence Industries during WW2. The rims are held precisely at .063" on every round I have gauged. That is the specified MAX or the cartridge.

OTOH, the .058 on the South African cartridge shown is not terribly out of line with a lot of what is out there. I have seen commercial ammunition with rims down to .045 and even a specimen at .037.

Having an inordinate amount of Scot in my ancestry, I use a Defence Industries casing with thin shims from brass shimstock of known thicknesses. You can get packets of brass shimstock at any machinery supply or serious industrial engine supply shop.

BTW, serious "headspace" worries with the .303 can be cured with 100% efficacy through the use of Ed's Famous O-Rings on the bass of cartridges, just ahead of the rim. The O-ring holds the case back against the bolt-face, reducing effective headspace to zero. Being cheap, I use pony-tail ties from the girls' department at the local Dollar Store. The pony-ail tie usually will only last one firing, but I got 500 yesterday for a buck, so the investment is not too heavy. Perfect for fireforming brass to a perfect fit.
 
BTW, serious "headspace" worries with the .303 can be cured with 100% efficacy through the use of Ed's Famous O-Rings on the bass of cartridges, just ahead of the rim. The O-ring holds the case back against the bolt-face, reducing effective headspace to zero. Being cheap, I use pony-tail ties from the girls' department at the local Dollar Store. The pony-ail tie usually will only last one firing, but I got 500 yesterday for a buck, so the investment is not too heavy. Perfect for fireforming brass to a perfect fit.

smellie, I a little cheap myself, my mothers maiden name was McVitty, and some of my American ancestors moved to Canada after our disagreement with King George 237 years ago. Our side of the clan stayed in the U.S. because we don't like Hockey and prefer Base Ball and Yuengling beer.

And the o-ring trick wasn't my idea, a Canadian posted the method years ago in one of the Enfield forums.

All I did was make up drawings and pass the idea along. I was a little tired of the Enfield rifle being blamed for American made SAAMI cases that are small in base diameter, having soft thin brass and undersized rims.

o-ring.jpg


Besides excess headspace has no international boundaries. ;)

excessheadspace.jpg
 
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Now I have a question. WHY is it ALWAYS Enfield headspace people ask about, NEVER Mousers or Moisons or Garands?

Because an Enfield rifle doesn't have a claw extractor that holds the cartridge case against the bolt face.

mauserbolt.jpg


762nato3006.jpg


And the American SAAMI doesn't make commercial .303 cartridges cases to British military specifications. f:P:2:

The KEY words to your question are "head clearance" and wimpy undersized cases.

headspacestretch-c.gif
 
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Ed, YOU are the guy who has brought this idea home to so many people....... and it is a damned good idea. By default, if for no other reason, they are now, and henceforth shall be, "Ed's Famous O-Rings". BTW, I have been using this phrase now for a couple of years and no-one has called me on it, so it appears as if you are stuck with it! Thanks for the great idea; it may not have started off as your idea, but it seems to be yours now! If the idea startles you, just remember that Colt didn't invent the revolver, either!

John Sukey: Chohn, ze reason zat no-vun effer suzpects MOUSERS iss zat effeyvun KNOWS ze high qvality off Cherman Armaments, yes?.

By the time the Garand was built, tolerances and machine-tools had improved to the point of 100% total interchangeability among all of the 6.5 million M-1s built, regardless of year or factory. This was actually improved upon with the introduction of the M-14 rifle, which was the first industrial product in the world built on 100% CNC machine-tools. It was in the contract. Being that I live in a Free Country in which I am not allowed to shoot an American-made M-14 (nor the FAL which I spent years prepping for competition), I shoot a Communist Chinese copy thereof..... which has HAND-FINISHED parts. Go figure.

The American 1903 Springfield was touted loudly as the finest military rifle ever built in all the US-based gun magazines back when I was starting out. It is, quite obviously, based on the Mauser. I think the reasoning was that if the Springfield was the BEST, the Mauser had to be really GOOD, although generally it was mentioned that you really ought to check the headspace carefully, with the correct gauges. I think millions of sets of unnecessary gauges must have been sold from those articles.

Add to that that the actual gun manufacturers all were in the USA: Winchester, Colt, Remington, Marlin, Savage, Ithaca and so forth There WERE no ads from BSA or from Parker-Hale or Churchill of London because they could not get Dollars to pay for the ads, nor could they export Pounds Sterling at that time. So the American market, and manufacturers, were IT. Obvious point: flatter your local makers, most of whom had built equipment fr the US military in recent years.

But there also were big differences: US bolt rifles were OBSOLETE and so were being sold off. German bolt rifles were CAPTURED and Germany was only beginning to have the smallest pretence of an Army, much of which was being equipped with American-made (then Spanish, then finally German) autoloading (and/or automatic) rifles and so, again, German bolt rifles were obsolete.

In Britain it was different. Britain was worn-out and flat broke. If they got into another war, it would have to be with BOLT rifles. So they did the intelligent thing and made a bit of badly-needed foreign exchange by surplussing their OBSOLETE Bolt rifles, starting with the war-wearies which were not worth fixing up. Rifles for which they had active factories were FTRd and the last have only been released in the last 20 years. For several years, the only British military rifles available were in pretty rough condition. Once they had settled on the FAL (1957) they could surplus a few more Bolt rifles, these in better condition.

So for several years you had Lee-Enfield rifles on the market, sold dirt cheap, which were not in the finest of nick and were ancient to boot. Add to this the SAAMI specs (which do NOT agree with Board of Ordnance specs) and you have rifles which have not seen the inside of a repair depot since Lawrence of Arabia lost them, firing badly out-of-spec ammunition, separating casings merrily and blasting their too-small-diameter bullets madly downrange in an effort to actually hit something. Obviously, there were problems, but nobody knew how to cure them because the "experts" were designing the ammunition so, obviously, the problem was that crappy British $12 rifle. "Hmm.... looks like a HEADSPACE problem; better gauge it." But in these cases, many times it WAS a headspace problem..... but it was generated by OUT OF SPEC ammunition, not by the Rifles themselves, which would have shot a lot better if the ammo had been up to spec.

The REALLY GOOD part of it all is that people like you and I managed to pick up some pretty rare rifles for junk price, as witness my $12 Navy 1907 Mark I*** SMLE. You probably have a treasure or two of your own with a similar absurd price-tag.

One thing I do remember rather vividly is a magazine article done by Col. Charles Askins, comparing the main rifles of the two World Wars. In conclusion, he stated, "We Americans build a target rifle, the Germans build a sporting rifle and the British just make something to kill people with." Being a penurious Canadian newbie to the hobby, I took rather a perverse pride in this evaluation which later had sound reasons to back it up. I do know that my first 98 Mauser cost 3 times what I paid for a full-wood SMLE..... and I still, 50 years later, can't afford a 1903 Springfield!

Hope this helps.
 
BigEd, and smellie,

Thank you both for very informative posts!

Ed, I had heard of the O-ring trick from a previous post by smellie, but I did not know you had a hand in popularizing it. I was about to mention that one of our members here had posted about how to do so, not knowing that I would be telling you about your own trick!
Thanks smellie, for posting Ed's involvement, and saving me a fair bit of embarrassment!

So, in real world terms, I have a No 4 Mk 1 with a mismatched bolt.
(Smellie will remember this thread.
http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?853968-Question-for-Lee-Enfield-gurus )
Should I borrow a set of Go/No Go gauges, or simply do the O-ring trick and fire-form the brass to whatever my chamber is?
 
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