Double barrel 12 guage gift

H

Hank_81

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London, On
Not to long ago I was given an old double barrel 12guage s/s. old hammer gun. it has "SAXTON" written on left hammer assembly plate,
-Checkered butt plate
-Checkered grip on stock
- Checkered forestock
-Gravity firing pin (no recoil spring on firing pins)
-all numbers matching #2
- E
L G under left barrel, also 17.4 under left barrel, 18.2 under right barrel
*
- Top strap connecting Barrels sais " LAMINATED STEEL"
- 30.5 inch barrels
It needs a couple of screws to keep the hammer assemblys together but either than that wood and steel are in good operating condition
I know its British but not much else,
* Can I fire regular 2 3/4 steel shot through this or is this a bad idea all together, If not it may end up being just a wall hanger.
Appreciate any knowledgeable advice.
 
its a bad idea to fire steel shot in anygun made before steel shot was ever a thought go get the chabers measured and fire the right length lead shotshells in them its mostlikey a good idea to go with blackpowder or light smokeless loads
 
Hank_81 said:
- E
L G under left barrel, also 17.4 under left barrel, 18.2 under right barrel
*
I know its British but not much else,
Click to expand...

If you check a Belgian proof mark site (ie Google "Belgian Proof Marks) I think you'll find that "E over LG" is a Belgian marking (black powder proof) - not British.

I think you should stick to black powder loads.

The "17.4" and "18.2" are, I believe, the choke markings.
 
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Liege from Belgium proof marks: http://www.shotguns.se/html/belgium.html

It sounds like one of the generic trade guns, Belgium cranked out millions of them, shipped them to the new world then sellers would stamp their marks on them and sell them.

Even if it was proofed for black powder the 12ga spec has never changed, if it's a good solid gun you'd probably be safe to shoot bird shot out of it. One thing you want to do before you shoot it though, have someone measure the chambers, a lot of those old guns are chambered for 2.5" shells, modern shells are 2.75" and it can cause pressure issues.

If you don't want to shoot it just pull the firing pins out and hang her on the wall, they always look good.
 
Not sure what you mean by the specs have not changed? Black powder and smokeless powder are not the same. They burn at a different rate and pressures are created differently at various intervals in the breech/barrel. And just because a load is birdshot does not mean the load is not generating a high pressure.
 
gunsaholic said:
Not sure what you mean by the specs have not changed? Black powder and smokeless powder are not the same. They burn at a different rate and pressures are created differently at various intervals in the breech/barrel. And just because a load is birdshot does not mean the load is not generating a high pressure.
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yep the pressure may be the same at the breech but smokeless carries that pressure all the way to the muzzle blackpowder does not that why older blackpowder barrels are thinner at the muzzle then the breech
 
antiqueguy said:
yep the pressure may be the same at the breech but smokeless carries that pressure all the way to the muzzle blackpowder does not that why older blackpowder barrels are thinner at the muzzle then the breech
Click to expand...

Older blackpowder barrels are thinner at the muzzle because they arn't choked, that's why newer guns are thicker at the muzzle.

Have a look at this:
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=259371

Ignoring the proof loads the pressure curves are basically identical, I've never seen any evidence that black powder produces a different pressure curve then smokeless in a shotgun, believe me I've looked.

gunsaholic said:
Not sure what you mean by the specs have not changed? Black powder and smokeless powder are not the same. They burn at a different rate and pressures are created differently at various intervals in the breech/barrel. And just because a load is birdshot does not mean the load is not generating a high pressure.
Click to expand...

The max pressure for 12ga has always been 11,500 (except 3.5" which is 14000). This value has never changed. When smokeless powder was developed they developed shells to match the performance and pressures of the old black powder loads.

I mainly said only bird shot because recoil is a major issue in those old guns. Shooting heavier shells (turkey shells, buckshot, slugs, etc) has a tenancy to shake them apart.
 
thing said:
Older blackpowder barrels are thinner at the muzzle because they arn't choked, that's why newer guns are thicker at the muzzle.

Have a look at this:
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=259371

Ignoring the proof loads the pressure curves are basically identical, I've never seen any evidence that black powder produces a different pressure curve then smokeless in a shotgun, believe me I've looked.



The max pressure for 12ga has always been 11,500 (except 3.5" which is 14000). This value has never changed. When smokeless powder was developed they developed shells to match the performance and pressures of the old black powder loads.

I mainly said only bird shot because recoil is a major issue in those old guns. Shooting heavier shells (turkey shells, buckshot, slugs, etc) has a tenancy to shake them apart.
Click to expand...

bunch of BS older shotgun barrels are choked but they are still thin just because the pressure is matched at the breech does not mean its the same as BP if the gun is a BP gun then that is what should go down the tubes the pressure curve with BP is much different then smokeless this can be seen when testing is done
 
thing said:
Older blackpowder barrels are thinner at the muzzle because they arn't choked, that's why newer guns are thicker at the muzzle.

Have a look at this:
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=259371

Ignoring the proof loads the pressure curves are basically identical, I've never seen any evidence that black powder produces a different pressure curve then smokeless in a shotgun, believe me I've looked.



The max pressure for 12ga has always been 11,500 (except 3.5" which is 14000). This value has never changed. When smokeless powder was developed they developed shells to match the performance and pressures of the old black powder loads.

I mainly said only bird shot because recoil is a major issue in those old guns. Shooting heavier shells (turkey shells, buckshot, slugs, etc) has a tenancy to shake them apart.
Click to expand...

You need to go onto doublegunshop forum. This has been discussed on there more than a few times. Those guys live and breathe vintage/antique shotguns and you will have a hard time convincing them that there is no difference in pressure curves between black powder and smokeless powder.
 
antiqueguy said:
bunch of BS older shotgun barrels are choked but they are still thin just because the pressure is matched at the breech does not mean its the same as BP if the gun is a BP gun then that is what should go down the tubes the pressure curve with BP is much different then smokeless this can be seen when testing is done
Click to expand...

I'm not trolling you, I would love to see proof of that. While the first chokes were patented in the early 1800s they didn't gain wide spread acceptance until the beginning of the 20th centuary. The Liege proof house didn't start marking choke until 1897, the box lock action predates that by (1875) 22 years. I have never seen a choked shotgun made before 1940.

Do you have any links to bp pressure curves? After exhaustive research I've found 2 things, people who say "don't shoot modern loads in black powder guns" and people who have done actual testing and found that old black powder proofed shotguns don't blow up with modern loads. Any guns that did blow up during the switch from black to smokeless

In addition old guns used heavier loads then we'd accept today, VM Star in 1954 (not that long ago) recomend the max load for a 12ga was 3.75 dr of Fg (102 gr), GOEX today recommends a max load of 89gr of FFg.

More up to date data for you: http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=27410#p339567 blue dot in a 45/70 gave the same pressure curves as black powder.

More tests from the double gun journal, a 16ga fired with black and blue dot: http://www.16ga.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=89726#89726

@ 1" from breech - black = 5900psi Blue Dot = 6000psi
@ 6" from breech - black = 4100psi Blue Dot = 4300psi
@ 12" from breech - black = 2100psi Blue Dot = 2300psi
Click to expand...
 
thing said:
I'm not trolling you, I would love to see proof of that. While the first chokes were patented in the early 1800s they didn't gain wide spread acceptance until the beginning of the 20th centuary. The Liege proof house didn't start marking choke until 1897, the box lock action predates that by (1875) 22 years. I have never seen a choked shotgun made before 1940.

Do you have any links to bp pressure curves? After exhaustive research I've found 2 things, people who say "don't shoot modern loads in black powder guns" and people who have done actual testing and found that old black powder proofed shotguns don't blow up with modern loads. Any guns that did blow up during the switch from black to smokeless

In addition old guns used heavier loads then we'd accept today, VM Star in 1954 (not that long ago) recomend the max load for a 12ga was 3.75 dr of Fg (102 gr), GOEX today recommends a max load of 89gr of FFg.

More up to date data for you: http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=27410#p339567 blue dot in a 45/70 gave the same pressure curves as black powder.

More tests from the double gun journal, a 16ga fired with black and blue dot: http://www.16ga.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=89726#89726
Click to expand...

you have never seen a gun made before 1940 with chokes go take a look at trade ex then because theres plenty

and again the same pressure at the breech means nothing its at the muzzle that counts sure a faster burning powder may work but that can also cause a higher pressure at the breech

i reload for 3 guns that are BP a 16ga double(had chokes) a martini henry mk 4 and now a pinfire 12ga (that i can tell you has a choke) only one i ever shot smokeless out of the martini henry with soild head brass with H4198 as most other powders tested(by a mamber over at british militaria forums) made too much pressure at the breech and the biggest culprit trailboss shocker
 
I beg your pardon, after some research I had the dates screw in chokes became popular confused with the date chokes became popular. Choked guns did indeed become fairly standard to manufacture in the late 1800s.

antiqueguy said:
and again the same pressure at the breech means nothing its at the muzzle that counts sure a faster burning powder may work but that can also cause a higher pressure at the breech
Click to expand...

It's clear you didn't even look at the last link I posted where they found pressure 6" from the breach and 12" from the breach was the same for black powder and blue dot.

I'm just going to assume you don't have any links to studies proving your point? Since you haven't posted any so far.
 
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