Pmag

AlbertaGunslinger said:
If the business is licenced for possesion of prohibited devices then they may import 30 round mags in their intended form. If the business or individual is not licensed for prohibited devices then they must import them already pinned.

If a business licenced for prohibited devices, imports them and then pins (AKA permanent modification so that they do not hold more than the legal number of rounds) the mags, they cease to be a prohibited device and become an unregulated item.
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As of last month (January 2013), an RCMP technician told me very clearly that this was illegal. It is not legally possible to import unpinned magazines and then pin them. Once a prohibited device, always a prohibited device. CBSA is onboard with the RCMP on this topic also.

If anyone disagrees with this statement, I STRONGLY encourage you to call up the RCMP technicians and ask them yourself before you end up in deep doo-doo.
 
cancer said:
As of last month (January 2013), an RCMP technician told me very clearly that this was illegal. It is not legally possible to import unpinned magazines and then pin them. Once a prohibited device, always a prohibited device. CBSA is onboard with the RCMP on this topic also.

If anyone disagrees with this statement, I STRONGLY encourage you to call up the RCMP technicians and ask them yourself before you end up in deep doo-doo.
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And how would they keep track of said items that don't have serial numbers. Sounds like its more like a possible loop hole for someone to take advantage of.
 
What about importing for sales to Law Enforcement ?


cancer said:
As of last month (January 2013), an RCMP technician told me very clearly that this was illegal. It is not legally possible to import unpinned magazines and then pin them. Once a prohibited device, always a prohibited device. CBSA is onboard with the RCMP on this topic also.

If anyone disagrees with this statement, I STRONGLY encourage you to call up the RCMP technicians and ask them yourself before you end up in deep doo-doo.
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Cancer, I believe you when you say an RCMP tech told you this but the RCMP does not get to make up the law. The law clearly says that a high cap mag (really standard capacity in the case of a Pmag) that has been permanently modified to hold the legal number of rounds in NOT a prohibited device. This is written in the Firearms Act and you may go look it up.

I can also tell you for a fact that properly licensed businesses can possess and import prohibited devices (mind you many importers and dealers cannot because their bussiness licences don't cover it).

One of the possibilities is that import permits for licenced businesses in regards to high cap mags sipulate that they may not be sold to civilians, but once again the law clearly states that a permanently modified magazine is NOT a prohibited device and there is no way that the RCMP, CBSA or any other government agency can get around that.
 
I was told the same information cancer has by a respected dealer/importer who knows his business; you cannot import full capacity magazines and then pin them in country for civilian sales.

However given the S&W 15/22 magazine debacle it seems the RCMP has set themselves a precedent in that you now CAN do this, because they said themselves you can pin the offending magazine yourself and it becomes legal.

Oops.
 
AlbertaGunslinger said:
Cancer, I believe you when you say an RCMP tech told you this but the RCMP does not get to make up the law. The law clearly says that a high cap mag (really standard capacity in the case of a Pmag) that has been permanently modified to hold the legal number of rounds in NOT a prohibited device. This is written in the Firearms Act and you may go look it up.

I can also tell you for a fact that properly licensed businesses can possess and import prohibited devices (mind you many importers and dealers cannot because their bussiness licences don't cover it).

One of the possibilities is that import permits for licenced businesses in regards to high cap mags sipulate that they may not be sold to civilians, but once again the law clearly states that a permanently modified magazine is NOT a prohibited device and there is no way that the RCMP, CBSA or any other government agency can get around that.
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You're right, the RCMP doesn't get to make up the law, but they do get to decide who does and does not get a firearms business licence. If a business wanted to play with fire and import 10,000 magazines then pin them when they got to Canada, against the RCMP's interpretation of the law, they risk losing their business licence. Wether it's written into law or not, the police have absolute power in this country. Sure, the RCMP could be taken to court over it, but lengthy court battles are guarenteed financial ruin for all but a select few elite Canadians.
 
cancer said:
You're right, the RCMP doesn't get to make up the law, but they do get to decide who does and does not get a firearms business licence. If a business wanted to play with fire and import 10,000 magazines then pin them when they got to Canada, against the RCMP's interpretation of the law, they risk losing their business licence. Wether it's written into law or not, the police have absolute power in this country. Sure, the RCMP could be taken to court over it, but lengthy court battles are guarenteed financial ruin for all but a select few elite Canadians.
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As an importer do what you feel it right. Maybe this is a trade or import law, but as a firearm law you are out to lunch and so your tech. Do you have this RCMP interpretation in writing?

IMHO you are little more then fear mongering in this thread and making honest gun owners who read this crap become paranoid they breaking the law by having a mag that was pinned in Canada. They are not. This kind of #### talk makes people scared and stay away from the sport and firearms, which bugs me the most.

As a point of reference everyone pinned their 30 rd mags to 5 rd when then new laws came in 1998. No one was made to turn them in or re-import new ones... They were all altered and re-manufactured in CANADA. :canadaFlag: ;)

The law is clear.

    • 3. (1) Any cartridge magazine
      • (a) that is capable of containing more than five cartridges of the type for which the magazine was originally designed and that is designed or manufactured for use in
        • (i) a semi-automatic handgun that is not commonly available in Canada,
        • (ii) a semi-automatic firearm other than a semi-automatic handgun,
        • (iii) an automatic firearm whether or not it has been altered to discharge only one projectile with one pressure of the trigger,
        • (iv) the firearms of the designs commonly known as the Ingram M10 and M11 pistols, and any variants or modified versions of them, including the Cobray M10 and M11 pistols, the RPB M10, M11 and SM11 pistols and the SWD M10, M11, SM10 and SM11 pistols,
        • (v) the firearm of the design commonly known as the Partisan Avenger Auto Pistol, and any variant or modified version of it, or
        • (vi) the firearm of the design commonly known as the UZI pistol, and any variant or modified version of it, including the Micro-UZI pistol; or
      • (b) that is capable of containing more than 10 cartridges of the type for which the magazine was originally designed and that is designed or manufactured for use in a semi-automatic handgun that is commonly available in Canada.
    • (2) Paragraph (1)(a) does not include any cartridge magazine that
      • (a) was originally designed or manufactured for use in a firearm that
        • (i) is chambered for, or designed to use, rimfire cartridges,
        • (ii) is a rifle of the type commonly known as the “Lee Enfield” rifle, where the magazine is capable of containing not more than 10 cartridges of the type for which the magazine was originally designed, or
        • (iii) is commonly known as the U.S. Rifle M1 (Garand) including the Beretta M1 Garand rifle, the Breda M1 Garand rifle and the Springfield Armoury M1 Garand rifle;
      • (b) is not a reproduction and was originally designed or manufactured for use in a firearm that
        • (i) is commonly known as the Charlton Rifle,
        • (ii) is commonly known as the Farquhar-Hill Rifle, or
        • (iii) is commonly known as the Huot Automatic Rifle;
      • (c) is of the “drum” type, is not a reproduction and was originally designed or manufactured for use in a firearm commonly known as
        • (i) the .303 in. Lewis Mark 1 machine-gun, or any variant or modified version of it, including the Lewis Mark 1*, Mark 2, Mark 2*, Mark 3, Mark 4, Lewis SS and .30 in. Savage-Lewis,
        • (ii) the .303 in. Vickers Mark 1 machine-gun, or any variant or modified version of it, including the Mark 1*, Mark 2, Mark 2*, Mark 3, Mark 4, Mark 4B, Mark 5, Mark 6, Mark 6* and Mark 7, or
        • (iii) the Bren Light machine-gun, or any variant or modified version of it, including the Mark 1, Mark 2, Mark 2/1, Mark 3 and Mark 4;
      • (d) is of the “metallic-strip” type, is not a reproduction and was originally designed or manufactured for use in conjunction with the firearm known as the Hotchkiss machine-gun, Model 1895 or Model 1897, or any variant or modified version of it, including the Hotchkiss machine-gun, Model 1900, Model 1909, Model 1914 and Model 1917, and the Hotchkiss machine-gun (Enfield), Number 2, Mark 1 and Mark 1*;
      • (e) is of the “saddle-drum” type (doppeltrommel or satteltrommel), is not a reproduction and was originally designed or manufactured for use in the automatic firearms known as the MG-13, MG-15, MG-17, MG-34, T6-200 or T6-220, or any variant or modified version of it; or
      • (f) is of the “belt” type consisting of a fabric or metal belt, is not a reproduction and was originally designed or manufactured for the purpose of feeding cartridges into a automatic firearm of a type that was in existence before 1945.
    • (3) Paragraph (1)(b) does not include any cartridge magazine that
      • (a) is of the “snail-drum” type (schneckentrommel) that was originally designed or manufactured for use in a firearm that is a handgun known as the Parabellum-Pistol, System Borchardt-Luger, Model 1900, or “Luger”, or any variant or modified version of it, including the Model 1902, Model 1904 (Marine), Model 1904/06 (Marine), Model 1904/08 (Marine), Model 1906, Model 1908 and Model 1908 (Artillery) pistols;
      • (b) was originally designed or manufactured for use in a firearm that is a semi-automatic handgun, where the magazine was manufactured before 1910;
      • (c) was originally designed or manufactured as an integral part of the firearm known as the Mauser Selbstladepistole C/96 (“broomhandle”), or any variant or modified version of it, including the Model 1895, Model 1896, Model 1902, Model 1905, Model 1912, Model 1915, Model 1930, Model 1931, M711 and M712; or
      • (d) was originally designed or manufactured for use in the semi-automatic firearm that is a handgun known as the Webley and Scott Self-Loading Pistol, Model 1912 or Model 1915.
    • (4) A cartridge magazine described in subsection (1) that has been altered or re-manufactured so that it is not capable of containing more than five or ten cartridges, as the case may be, of the type for which it was originally designed is not a prohibited device as prescribed by that subsection if the modification to the magazine cannot be easily removed and the magazine cannot be easily further altered so that it is so capable of containing more than five or ten cartridges, as the case may be.
    • (5) For the purposes of subsection (4), altering or re-manufacturing a cartridge magazine includes
      • (a) the indentation of its casing by forging, casting, swaging or impressing;
      • (b) in the case of a cartridge magazine with a steel or aluminum casing, the insertion and attachment of a plug, sleeve, rod, pin, flange or similar device, made of steel or aluminum, as the case may be, or of a similar material, to the inner surface of its casing by welding, brazing or any other similar method; or
      • (c) in the case of a cartridge magazine with a casing made of a material other than steel or aluminum, the attachment of a plug, sleeve, rod, pin, flange or similar device, made of steel or of a material similar to that of the magazine casing, to the inner surface of its casing by welding, brazing or any other similar method or by applying a permanent adhesive substance, such as a cement or an epoxy or other glue.
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Hey, I'm not trying to fear monger! I'm just relaying exactly what the RCMP told me. If people want to try and import unpinned magazines, then pin them when they get to Canada, the RCMP and CBSA is going to make their live's miserable.

Are the RCMP skewing the law to their own incorrect interpretation? Looks like it, but when haven't they? CBSA is even worse. They won't even release a private citizen's prohibited device (unpinned magazine) to licenced prohibited firearms dealers in Canada. They'll just tell you to produce a prohibited firearms licence or we're going to "destroy" your bought and paid for property. Not to mention, they view disassembled magazines as prohibited devices, which is also a joke. The authorities have taken the law into their own hands. We really need the government to step in and straighten them out, because they are getting carried away with their own personal agendas. Most Canadians can't afford the legal fees to give the RCMP and CBSA the shove off they perhaps deserve within the judicial system.
 
cancer said:
Hey, I'm not trying to fear monger! I'm just relaying exactly what the RCMP told me. If people want to try and import unpinned magazines, then pin them when they get to Canada, the RCMP and CBSA is going to make their live's miserable.

Are the RCMP skewing the law to their own incorrect interpretation? Looks like it, but when haven't they? CBSA is even worse. They won't even release a private citizen's prohibited device (unpinned magazine) to licenced prohibited firearms dealers in Canada. They'll just tell you to produce a prohibited firearms licence or we're going to "destroy" your bought and paid for property. Not to mention, they view disassembled magazines as prohibited devices, which is also a joke. The authorities have taken the law into their own hands. We really need the government to step in and straighten them out, because they are getting carried away with their own personal agendas. Most Canadians can't afford the legal fees to give the RCMP and CBSA the shove off they perhaps deserve within the judicial system.
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I agree with what you are saying. The qualifier to know if you can import a prohibited magazine is if you have a dealer licence that says you can.

Importing a prohibited device without the correct licence is criminal. A fool's endeavour.

Once a 30rd magazine is pinned to 5 rds it is no longer a prohibited device, it doesn't matter if this was done in Canada or outside of Canada.
 
The regulations are extremely clear; once it is pinned it is no longer a prohibited device in Canada. Naturally, with to the coming into force of the regs not making every magazine in Canada illegal. But, you must have a dealers licence for prohibited devices to be able to possess an unpinned mag. Probably the reason for the confusion. So yes, a dealer with a licence to posses prohibited devices can bring in and pin the mags themselves, probably not a common occurrence and presumably not the situation. Not to mention possible export/import restritctions.

An unpinned mag body never used to be illegal in Canada, but there is now case law in BC saying that it is illegal. Reading the regs pertinent to pinning mags I think it would be very unlikely anyone could misinterpret or set contradictory case law in this situation.

Just my 2 cents.
 
Mirk said:
The regulations are extremely clear; once it is pinned it is no longer a prohibited device in Canada. Naturally, with to the coming into force of the regs not making every magazine in Canada illegal. But, you must have a dealers licence for prohibited devices to be able to possess an unpinned mag. Probably the reason for the confusion. So yes, a dealer with a licence to posses prohibited devices can bring in and pin the mags themselves, probably not a common occurrence and presumably not the situation. Not to mention possible export/import restritctions.

An unpinned mag body never used to be illegal in Canada, but there is now case law in BC saying that it is illegal. Reading the regs pertinent to pinning mags I think it would be very unlikely anyone could misinterpret or set contradictory case law in this situation.

Just my 2 cents.
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I thought an unpinned mag body was legal as long as the magazine is disassembled.
 
cancer said:
It wasn't long ago that was the case. But now.. no more. This is where you get into a sticky situation with re-pinning your own mags.
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So in this court decision they figured an unpinned mag body disassembled is a prohibited device? How retarded is this country getting. Has this been edited or clarified in the firearms act since this case im slightly confused.
 
Non-phixion said:
So in this court decision they figured an unpinned mag body disassembled is a prohibited device? How retarded is this country getting. Has this been edited or clarified in the firearms act since this case im slightly confused.
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Basically, I’ll try to some this up, someone imported 30 round mag bodies and got arrested for it, I believe it was mail order. The court decided that the term “capable” meant readily capable (this is BS) as per R. v. Hasselwander, thus the fact that the mag body could be quickly assembled into a functioning 30 round mag deemed it a prohibited device. The decision was appealed and lost, the case wasn’t taken any further as far as I know. I was lead to believe it was because there was a concern it would create further legal precedence.
 
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