wads in .357?

just having some fun said:
Dont shoot those loads

Some of the Rules of reloading is

Never start with max charge

Work up loads when changing something

Smokeless powder does not require a wad

a wad will not reduce leading

So you have broken at least 4 basic rules
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as stated, he is UNDER.... the MIN load for a 158 gr bullet.

he is working up a load as he started below the minimum loading data.

a wad wont cause leading, so that is a moot point.
 
just having some fun said:
Would you load a 357 mag charge in a 38 special case NOOOOOOOOO

That is what you have done by reducing the volume of the case by using a wad
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I don't think you realize that the minimum charge of IMR4227 leaves NO space when seating a bullet in a .357mag case. With a max charge you actually compress the powder a little. 4227 is a slower handgun powder. Its not a whizzer like TITEGROUP where I'd be using 3.5grn for a snappy .38+P type load. Compressing certain powders is okay and 4227 is one of them.
 
you are (estimate ) 4-5 grains over max by using a wad

are you using a very old lot of 4227 made by Dupont
are you using a old lot of IMR 4227 (IMR metal can) or
are you using a old lot of IMR 4227 plactic jug made in Canada or
are you using a new lot of IMR 4227 plactic jug made in Australia ----> (H4227)


and I have experience with 4227 and I have used 4227 and a dacron filler
 
Consider the wad to be a small extension of the bullet base. If its fine to shoot a bare bullet with max 16grn load being compressed then it should be fine with one sixteenth of an inch of wad compressing LESS powder.
 
Maybe you should ask someone having a working Quickload program to run the numbers for you.
My Quickload stopped working when I upgraded windows.
 
I have successfully used wads cut from styrofoam meat trays in .44 Magnum to minimize leading with commercial cast bullets. Results were good with a conservative load of 20.0 grains of L'il Gun. The drawback is that the making of wads and the loading process is a bit labour intensive. I have since switched to using liquid Alox to supplement the lube the bullets come with.
 
I am curious what the effective volume of the felt wad is, as the pressure mounts under ignition. I mean, if you sit on a felt pad, it compresses, and although I admit to being a leada$$, I ain't no 20K psi! So, starting below book max, reducing effective case volume to something between .38 and .357, hmmm, interesting. And, since all my .357's lead like crazy near max velocities, I would be interested in hearing the results, as they relate to leading.

Not that I sweat removing the lead from the bore, but I surely don't appreciate profiles of my SWC's stuck under the feet of a pig silhouette at 100 yds!
 
before someone's Wadded PANTIES choke off the blood to their brains, how about we find out what firearm these are being launched from!

if a Handi rifle, then the wad is a non-issue as the running start will reduce pressures significantly.


just having some fun said:
Would you load a 357 mag charge in a 38 special case NOOOOOOOOO

That is what you have done by reducing the volume of the case by using a wad
Click to expand...

Actually, that is done fairly often, with correct loading procedures, and the right brass.

if you seat out the bullet, you can make the internal capacity of a SPL case the same as the MAG case when loaded to SAAMI COAL

same thing with the MAG case and MAX Loads. Seat the bullet way out there, and you can equal the case capacity of a SAAMI COAL MAX.



it would REALLY help if folks would get all the info to make an informed comment before blowing an artery or something
 
nanuk said:
before someone's Wadded PANTIES choke off the blood to their brains, how about we find out what firearm these are being launched from!

if a Handi rifle, then the wad is a non-issue as the running start will reduce pressures significantly.


Actually, that is done fairly often, with correct loading procedures, and the right brass.

if you seat out the bullet, you can make the internal capacity of a SPL case the same as the MAG case when loaded to SAAMI COAL

same thing with the MAG case and MAX Loads. Seat the bullet way out there, and you can equal the case capacity of a SAAMI COAL MAX.


it would REALLY help if folks would get all the info to make an informed comment before blowing an artery or something
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Sorry, but you're wrong. A "running start" is irrelevant. It may "seem" to be a logical assumption, but that's not how it really works.

In most handgun and small cases, peak pressure occurs BEFORE the bullet has travelled 1/4". Which means it hasn't even cleared the case or engaged the rifling. Swagging of the bullet into the rifling only requires a couple thousand psi, so it really doesn't make a difference to peak pressure. If the bullet is already moving, it also doesn't really retard the forward motion.

A bullet seated against the lands is a little different. That retards the combustion/volume/timing curve and leads to higher pressure.


However your comment about increasing OAL to match internal capacity without the wad is absolutely correct.
 
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nanuk said:
HORNADY Ballisticians seem to disagree with you!
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Good article. Their discussion is very general to convey some basic concepts.

If you read closely, they agree exactly with what I said (keeping in mind both the Hornady article and my notes are very general, and they talk about rifle cartridge and my comments in this thread were for a handgun cartridge). Touching rifling = higher pressure. And right down to the part where I note that as long as the bullet is moving, it doesn't do much to pressure, and seating against the lands, raises pressure.

There is also a BIG difference between the peak pressure curves of a handgun cartridge and a rifle cartridge. Peak pressure in a rifle cartridge occurs after the bullet has travelled 1 to 2" (or a more for large overbore cartridges with very slow burning powder), not the 1/8" to 1/4" as in a handgun cartridge. So in a RIFLE cartridge, any time delay caused by engaging the rifling will have an effect on pressure. (I'm using time as the reference point because it is the one linear variable). That is where freebore with a rifle cartridge is a factor in peak pressure.

In a handgun cartridge, freebore is (generally) irreverent, because peak pressure occurs so quickly. Peak pressure is entirely related to powder burn rate, case volume and mass of the bullet, by the time the bullet engages the rifling, even without freebore, it is at or past peak pressure. Yes this entire discussion is still a bit of a generalization, but conceptually correct.

Internal ballistics is not at all "intuitive". There are FAR too many variable changing all at once to easily understand what changing one variable does to all the others. And that's because all the variables are not linear (except time), so are changing at different rates relative to each other. That is why a small decrease in case volume has such a disproportionate effect on peak pressure, and why a huge increase in peak pressure has little relationship to velocity. (50% increase in peak pressure doesn't give 50% more velocity)

The more I learned, studied and experimented (modelling in particular), the less I felt I understood. I modelled thousands of different combinations, changing one variable at a time and observing the effects on other variables. This type of experimentation often termed a Sensitivity Analysis.

And as for modelling? Yes modelling is actually a very good tool, fast and informative. Consider that all aircraft built today are entirely designed based on computer models, and training is done in simulators. Every building and structure is built using computer models to calculate loads. But even if a model is off by a bit (uncalibrated), it is still an excellent tool for learning and understanding how variables interact and how changing one, affects all the others.

Just trying to explain and give a little perspective here about internal ballistics, in simple terms, for anyone that might be interested.
 
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We use rice, oatmeal and cotton baton to keep powder in place when using pistol powders in rifle cases all the time. Handgun shot cartridges reduce case volume and are made commercialy and components are available, I have made them for the .45LC using a cardboard wad over the powder and a carboard wad over the case rim then roll crimped in place and sealed with wax. The cardboard, was from cigarette boxs.

As for felt wadding. The Brits used a felt wad over their .303 rifle rounds to keep the strands of powder in place. The load seemed to work well enough according to the Germans.

FYI 14.5 gr of 4227 under the 358429 Lyman bullet was one of m Flexall's favourite loads. I have shot it out of a S&W M 27 and my Ruger GP 100 and the load is extremely accurate.

The wadding will reduce or elimiate leading from my experience.

Take Care

Bob
 
Myself I would want definitive handloader manuals pointing this out step by step. BP loads with wads are one thing, smokeless loads with wads, is another different game altogther. It's not a very popular practice these days, hence my scrutiny that could be easily translated into pessimism.
 
Brutus said:
Myself I would want definitive handloader manuals pointing this out step by step. BP loads with wads are one thing, smokeless loads with wads, is another different game altogther. It's not a very popular practice these days, hence my scrutiny that could be easily translated into pessimism.
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Why not wonder over to the Cast Bullet Forum and find out for yourself. Lots of folks over there can lead you through the process.

Take Care

Bob
 
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