I stop at every one I pass, and have studied history all my adult life, parting with good money to do so, after high school. Museums don't walk around the final resting places of countless people, picking up whatever catches their eye. I love relics, especially trench art, I just don't agree with amatuer grave site "archeology". Don't get me wrong, I find the gear, people and history facinating, but places like the Somme, Vimy Ridge, and many others are mass grave sites, and deserve proper respect. I don't see them as great places to dig up personal items from the deceased.
My newest somme battle field pick ups
- Thread starter JTF#
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I stop at every one I pass, and have studied history all my adult life, parting with good money to do so, after high school. Museums don't walk around the final resting places of countless people, picking up whatever catches their eye. I love relics, especially trench art, I just don't agree with amatuer grave site "archeology". Don't get me wrong, I find the gear, people and history facinating, but places like the Somme, Vimy Ridge, and many others are mass grave sites, and deserve proper respect. I don't see them as great places to dig up personal items from the deceased.
Well you can see this is a very touchy subject and one of the reason's, amongst others, that France is very strict on picking up battlefield relics. I admit, I was ignorant of the laws when I was there and I could very well have been fined for picking up some shell fragments. I considered the few pieces I brought back as borrowing and I show them in history classes or interested parties whenever I get the chance. I also posted pictures of my finds on CGN here so that others may learn and appreciate the sites and history.
The one place that turns me off to picking up these relics is Ebay. Have a look on there and you will see plenty of WW1 and WW2 relics "found on the battlefield". Many of these items are personal in nature (buttons, cigarette cases...etc) and I wonder if they were found with human remains only to be taken and sold for $. It is not an new custom, it has been done for centuries, just look at the Egyptian tombs. There are certainly two schools of thought on this: one being the preservation of history for public display and study and the other for private use. Before I went to France and the Canadian, German, and British battle sites, I was of the private acquisition side but now, after being there, I am wholeheartedly of the former for public preservation, display, and study.
The one place that turns me off to picking up these relics is Ebay. Have a look on there and you will see plenty of WW1 and WW2 relics "found on the battlefield". Many of these items are personal in nature (buttons, cigarette cases...etc) and I wonder if they were found with human remains only to be taken and sold for $. It is not an new custom, it has been done for centuries, just look at the Egyptian tombs. There are certainly two schools of thought on this: one being the preservation of history for public display and study and the other for private use. Before I went to France and the Canadian, German, and British battle sites, I was of the private acquisition side but now, after being there, I am wholeheartedly of the former for public preservation, display, and study.
I remember going to see the Titanic display at the Royal Ontario Museum a few years ago. One particular display they had was a leather bag that contained personal items such as money, lipstick, perfume, jewelry...etc. I was amazed that such delicate items had survived the ravages of time at the great depths that the Titanic wreck is now at. Rumours are the wreck will collapse in on itself by the end of the decade. With this in mind, any expeditions have been racing to preserve what is left before it is lost to time.
I watched the video where the leather bag was first discovered as it played on a computer monitor beside the display cabinet. There was a good heated debate by members of the sub crew amongst themselves and with the surface crew as to touching and bringing back a personal item like the leather bag. The debate became such that they left the bag for another trip and contacted home base for instruction and direction on the matter. It was only after consulting with stakeholders and related parties, that they agreed that the leather bag could be brought to the surface.
One scene I will never forget is that the leather bag was found relatively close to a pair of boots. This was likely the cause of the debate but the premise still remains.
I watched the video where the leather bag was first discovered as it played on a computer monitor beside the display cabinet. There was a good heated debate by members of the sub crew amongst themselves and with the surface crew as to touching and bringing back a personal item like the leather bag. The debate became such that they left the bag for another trip and contacted home base for instruction and direction on the matter. It was only after consulting with stakeholders and related parties, that they agreed that the leather bag could be brought to the surface.
One scene I will never forget is that the leather bag was found relatively close to a pair of boots. This was likely the cause of the debate but the premise still remains.
Glock22Guy
Regular
- Location
- GansterTown BC
it is !! & I Care. That ground is sacred and should be treated as such Instead of breaking French Law like YOU did.
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#1bcshooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- North Of The DMZ (US border)
Glock22Guy
Regular
- Location
- GansterTown BC
About Time!!!! So can we assume Ontario boy you are leaving us for good or is your threat only until you have something else to share with us.
Listen here, and listen good. My country, The Dominion of Newfoundland lost 648 men at Beaumont-Hamel. For the likes of you to be trading in artifacts from there you must be spoiling for a fight. You, and your likes are despicable. I don't care if I get banned from CGN for life.
Wow!
I only deal with official "military surplus".
I view this as legitimate battlefield bringbacks though I find it difficult to hold a rifle that you know, by examining the wood and metal, was recovered from the battlefields during the conflicts. Without these, the collector market would be significantly smaller, German military rifles would be non-existent for the most part and you would only find examples at museums, deactivated. The wealth of information would come from books with little, if any, evaluation of period examples. My ultimate goal is to give back to the community, and remember the soldiers who both carried these arms and were on the receiving end of them, by writing a collectors guide about German rifles used in WW1.
To add to this, I will say that I have atleast four German rifles from WW1 that are vet bring backs. One I acquired from the grandson of the Canadian officer who brought the rifle back. There wasn't much of a story with her but close examination of the wood and metal, below and above the stockline, revealed she had been dropped in the mud and was there for some time. I chose to share my findings and I made a post here on the Milsurp board that focuses on German WW1 rifles and what to look for. I will be updating it soon as I have some new information and pieces to share to help advance the general knowledge of the forum.
The debate here is originally focused on going to former battlefields today and digging up relics to bring back home. Recall the previous article on here that mentioned the recently uncovered German trench. There was lot of personal gear that was recovered. There are four possibilities for these items now that they have been uncovered. 1. is for them to be retained and put on public display at a relevant museum. 2. The items are buried with the soldiers in appropriate war graves. 3. The items are sold on the collector/antique market. 4. The items are destroyed.
You can bet that there is a huge amount of debate to go back and forth with these options and it is an issue that will never go away. Both sides have their arguments, none is more correct than the other. What we can hope for is a middle ground for compromise and sharing of knowledge.
Dirt McGirt
Regular
- Location
- 36 Chambers
Yo wut u did wuz strait up wack. Dem fields be fo da fallen yall cant be jacking shyt from dem. Dat stuff u looted now be strait up haunted by the ghosts of da fallen
I can tell you from first hand experience most museums don't want that stuff, or if they do they put in the basement. I'd personally rather see this stuff end up with a knowledgeable and respectful collector.
I hav a small library of First World War military manuals, including Artillery course notes, all formerly the property of ONE Canadian Artillery Officer.
I don't think I did anything terribly wrong to obtain these, except possibly Theft Under $50.
I "stole" them from the Museum's GARBAGE CAN.
Private collectors generally take much better care of their treasures than do most museums.
I remember seeing a beautiful Mercedes in th CWM which was attributed for many years to Reichsmarschall Hermann Goering. After 40-odd years, some "expert" finally got around to asking the company who they sold th thing to. It belonged to Adolf Hitler. Said the Director of Our National Treasure House, "I don't even know what we have the sunnuvvab*tch's car for, anyway!"
Far as I am concerned, if something is on top of the ground, it's fair game.
If you have to dig for it, get a permit (if you can).
As far as History is concerned, how many millions of shrapnel rounds were fired on the Somme? Each contained 100 or more shrapnel bullets. Picking up ONE from the surface is not going to alter what happened there, for there still are billions (literally) under the surface. To ME, that shrapnel bullet would be a treasure..... and even moreso if it came from July 1. I had friends who were there who would never talk about it.
I think the bottom of the question comes to one word: RESPECT.
The Japanese have a bunch of junk from the war at a place called Yasukuni. They worship it.
We must have respect, always.
I don't think I did anything terribly wrong to obtain these, except possibly Theft Under $50.
I "stole" them from the Museum's GARBAGE CAN.
Private collectors generally take much better care of their treasures than do most museums.
I remember seeing a beautiful Mercedes in th CWM which was attributed for many years to Reichsmarschall Hermann Goering. After 40-odd years, some "expert" finally got around to asking the company who they sold th thing to. It belonged to Adolf Hitler. Said the Director of Our National Treasure House, "I don't even know what we have the sunnuvvab*tch's car for, anyway!"
Far as I am concerned, if something is on top of the ground, it's fair game.
If you have to dig for it, get a permit (if you can).
As far as History is concerned, how many millions of shrapnel rounds were fired on the Somme? Each contained 100 or more shrapnel bullets. Picking up ONE from the surface is not going to alter what happened there, for there still are billions (literally) under the surface. To ME, that shrapnel bullet would be a treasure..... and even moreso if it came from July 1. I had friends who were there who would never talk about it.
I think the bottom of the question comes to one word: RESPECT.
The Japanese have a bunch of junk from the war at a place called Yasukuni. They worship it.
We must have respect, always.
- Location
- Beaverlodge, Alberta
Its a tough one to decide on a stance for me. On one hand there are no veterans of the Great War left to pass on what they experienced, what has gone to the grave with them is now lost forever. I think proper study is a right and proper thing to do. I also think that if I was one of the men who fell there I would have wanted out of there in life and also in death, and that a proper burial for those men would be an honor not a sacrilege. I think the only bitter sweet thing about keeping them there is that it is a reminder of what happened there and its a sobering thing to think of all those who were buried by violence.
On the flip side of this have you ever owned or handled anything that was milsurp that gave you that uneasy feeling deep in your gut like this object has witnessed something so horrid that just being in its presence could give you nightmares? The rifle my Grandpa was given by my Grandmother as a wedding present is one which I have that does this. I had never mentioned it to my wife and one day she told me she doesn't like to look at it and it makes her uneasy having it in the house, even though it was Grandpas and will never leave my possession. I'm sure that anything that did survive was picked up and thrown back into circulation, these things too were there, we just may never know what they witnessed or where.
On the flip side of this have you ever owned or handled anything that was milsurp that gave you that uneasy feeling deep in your gut like this object has witnessed something so horrid that just being in its presence could give you nightmares? The rifle my Grandpa was given by my Grandmother as a wedding present is one which I have that does this. I had never mentioned it to my wife and one day she told me she doesn't like to look at it and it makes her uneasy having it in the house, even though it was Grandpas and will never leave my possession. I'm sure that anything that did survive was picked up and thrown back into circulation, these things too were there, we just may never know what they witnessed or where.
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