A great many damascus guns were nitro-proofed either at the time they were made or subsequently reproofed for smokeless powders.
Smokeless loads in old Damascus barrels
- Thread starter Win 38-55
- Start date
- Location
- Saskatchewan
In my limited understanding, there is a distinct difference between multi strand damascus ( very strong) and simple "twist" steel barrels - which are weak by design.
Correct me if I am wrong, but his is what I believe: The very cheapest hardware store guns of 100 or more years ago were "twist" steel barrels. Barrels and actions were weak and very few have survived in shootable condition to this day. However, high quality Parker, LC Smith, or British guns for example were only made with good quality Damascus steel barrels, not cheap twist steel. Actions were properly heat treated. I would have no worries shooting a high quality Damascus gun with "smokeless for black" loads that do not develop more than 7-8000 psi. I would not shoot a cheap gun with the old twist steel barrels even with black powder.
Correct me if I am wrong, but his is what I believe: The very cheapest hardware store guns of 100 or more years ago were "twist" steel barrels. Barrels and actions were weak and very few have survived in shootable condition to this day. However, high quality Parker, LC Smith, or British guns for example were only made with good quality Damascus steel barrels, not cheap twist steel. Actions were properly heat treated. I would have no worries shooting a high quality Damascus gun with "smokeless for black" loads that do not develop more than 7-8000 psi. I would not shoot a cheap gun with the old twist steel barrels even with black powder.
gunsaholic
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Winnipeg, Manitoba
To me it depends on how you look at it and the condition of the gun. I have an old SxS that has twist barrels. The action on it is tight and the bores are in fine condition. No problem shooting it with light loads. What also surprises me about some of these guns is the reputation that these cheap "hardware store " name guns have gotton. I have had a couple of these guns and I have removed the locks to have a look. I saw no difference in the quality or design as a couple of mid level guns I had. Plus the stocks are walnut. People buy a $250.00 Mossberg today with hardwood stock or plastic and talk about how good they are (and they are). Well, these old store brand guns were made with walnut and all steel . On a comparitive note they were built every bit as good as the new cheap guns. And speaking of twist barrels, one study that was done took these cheap store brand guns and tested them. They took these old guns that were severly pitted, guns that had been severly honed etc. They even weakened the barrels on purpose to see what pressures they would take. Pressures were exceeding well beyond 30 000 psi before anything started happening. So people can regard these old guns to whatever level they want but the truth is there is more fact out there saying a lot of the negatisim is a myth. Sure some of these have blown up, just as there has been countless new guns that have blown up. Should we quit shooting them unless it is a $10 000 gun?
well ill start by first saying unless you have repeated proof they blow up firing any ammo, and cant produce pics or a link to a story, i say the claim people make against damascus barrels is false, they have been tested upwards of 30,000psi, no modern load makes more than 11,500 at the most! check your load manuals, i shoot a 150 yr old english muzzleloader sxs every weekend, its a head turner and it outshoots the big boys, i also shoot vintage rem 1894 which were actually proofed for nitro powder, check out the adds they put out, a great many quality american made guns,, remingtons, ithacas, lefevers, parkers, ets, if the bores are clean and no external rust, im betting my money on its as gd as day it was made, for instance i recently was given a gun to examine and test, a "aj aubrey sxs damascus" guy bought it for 40$ needed stock repaired, i fixed it, and proofed it with modern loads, absolutey beautiful patterns and no signs of failure or bulges, these were also advertised as proofed for modern smokeless powders, and they were a hardware store gun!
i have a buddy that blew up a brand new browning bps 3.5" magnum 12 gauge using a 2.75" standard load shell, so anyone who claims damascus guns are wall hangers
or show pieces, should sit and think how many of us cgn'rs still have all our fingers , id like to know out of everyone on here, have you ever blown one up or seen one being blown when used correctly!!!
i have a buddy that blew up a brand new browning bps 3.5" magnum 12 gauge using a 2.75" standard load shell, so anyone who claims damascus guns are wall hangers
or show pieces, should sit and think how many of us cgn'rs still have all our fingers , id like to know out of everyone on here, have you ever blown one up or seen one being blown when used correctly!!!
gunsaholic
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Winnipeg, Manitoba
Quote " id like to know out of everyone on here, have you ever blown one up or seen one being blown when used correctly!!! "
And here is the key. I'm sure there have been some that have blown up. But, look at the cause of why it might have blown instead of just blaming it because it was damascus. In the great majority of cases it will be because there was an obstruction in a barrel. That will blow up any gun. And if not an obstruction, another cause ends up being an over charge of powder on reloads. Realize we are talking about guns in safe, fit working condition. Not some neglected, abused and forgotten gun. There are many modern/new guns that are probably unsafe to shoot because of neglect.
And here is the key. I'm sure there have been some that have blown up. But, look at the cause of why it might have blown instead of just blaming it because it was damascus. In the great majority of cases it will be because there was an obstruction in a barrel. That will blow up any gun. And if not an obstruction, another cause ends up being an over charge of powder on reloads. Realize we are talking about guns in safe, fit working condition. Not some neglected, abused and forgotten gun. There are many modern/new guns that are probably unsafe to shoot because of neglect.
- Location
- Ft. Mac. Alberta
This is the biggest bunch of malarky I have ever read!!
I own many Damascus barreld shotguns, and have three , one that was re-proofed at Birmingham for smokeless and two that were built with Damascus for nitro , and proofed at Borminhhame for maximum nitro loads .
My 20 bore Bland was built in 1899 and proofed for 7/8oz maximum nitro loads .
Damascus guns are shot every day using smokeless loads , and some manufacturers are still making Damascus barrels on order, greener for one.
I would suggest you quit spouting old wive's tales....
Cat
I think the "Damascus is unsafe" mantra you hear comes from two places 1) Gun manufactures wanting to sell you new guns, 2) people who blew themselves up when smokeless was introduced substituting smokeless for black by volume. I've never seen any actual evidence that Damascus is unsafe.
On a note related to the OP, Hodgdon publishes 2.5" loads: http://data.hodgdon.com/shotshell_load.asp rem STS hulls, win AA hulls and federal gold metal hulls, I assume they're cut down 2.75" shells.
On a note related to the OP, Hodgdon publishes 2.5" loads: http://data.hodgdon.com/shotshell_load.asp rem STS hulls, win AA hulls and federal gold metal hulls, I assume they're cut down 2.75" shells.
- Location
- Ft. Mac. Alberta
They can be , yes, but there are also many companies such as kent that make factory 2.5" hulls as well.
Cuttin a hull is very easy, you can buy specialized cutters, use a band saw or a hacksaw, or use a set of shears that are designed for heavy cutting, whiich is what I do when I am only cutting a few down.
More than 20 and i break out the band saw!:>)
Cat
I never thought of using my band saw, you have just made my life eaiser.
I have read some of the articles you mention. In one of them he blew up 2 old parker's only one was Damascus the other steel and they both took almost the same pressure to let go. The damascus was a lot safer looking barrel than what happened to the steel barrel. They were right around 30,000 psi if memory serves me correctly. I will look and see if I can find the load data for you.
That's what I do now, although I have a piece of pipe, I'm gonna have to make a jig for my band saw.
I shoot more old damascus and twist steel barreled guns than fluid steel. In fact, I've taken to shooting Gamebore 2 1/2" loads in all my guns, regardless of chamber length (with the exception of hunts for tough species like sharptail grouse and pheasants, for which I like to use guns proofed for heavy nitro loads). I like the Gamebore shells because they employ felt wads rather than plastic shot cups. I find that the traditional shells generate better patterns than 'modern' loads and they are softer on recoil. For anyone who doesn't already know this, the Gamebore shells are designed to generate pressures closer to the previous generation black power shells than those produced by your average modern nitro load.
If you have an old damascus barreled gun that you're not sure you can trust, strap it firmly to an old tire, brace the butt stock against the tire of your truck, and fire the gun remotely using a rope to pull the triggers from the safety of the other side of the truck. Be sure to inspect the gun thoroughly for any signs of damage after this test. For those with less experience, I'd recommend testing the gun in this fashion several times successfully before shouldering the gun. I would also recommend cleaning all your guns after every use (even though it's not strictly speaking necessary) and inspecting them for signs of stress or damage at that time.
In response to HUNTERROD's question about first-hand knowledge of barrel failures, I can honestly say that in 45 years of shooting, I've never personally known anyone to even split a barrel, let alone blow one up.
If you have an old damascus barreled gun that you're not sure you can trust, strap it firmly to an old tire, brace the butt stock against the tire of your truck, and fire the gun remotely using a rope to pull the triggers from the safety of the other side of the truck. Be sure to inspect the gun thoroughly for any signs of damage after this test. For those with less experience, I'd recommend testing the gun in this fashion several times successfully before shouldering the gun. I would also recommend cleaning all your guns after every use (even though it's not strictly speaking necessary) and inspecting them for signs of stress or damage at that time.
In response to HUNTERROD's question about first-hand knowledge of barrel failures, I can honestly say that in 45 years of shooting, I've never personally known anyone to even split a barrel, let alone blow one up.
Good post.
I use a different method of securing a gun for testing. Rather than a tire, I use sandbags. Under, behind, and on top. No chance of marking up the stock.
The good thing about all the badmouthing of damascus and twist barrels is that it helps keep the prices down. Worked that way with Ross rifles for a long time. Now that more people have found out that Rosses won't blow the bolts into their faces if even a tiny amount of common sense is exercised, prices are going up.
I use a different method of securing a gun for testing. Rather than a tire, I use sandbags. Under, behind, and on top. No chance of marking up the stock.
The good thing about all the badmouthing of damascus and twist barrels is that it helps keep the prices down. Worked that way with Ross rifles for a long time. Now that more people have found out that Rosses won't blow the bolts into their faces if even a tiny amount of common sense is exercised, prices are going up.
gunsaholic
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Winnipeg, Manitoba
I was wondering what the pressures of these are as I haven't been able to find out. The question was sent to Kent but never got a reply. Are Kent Pure Gold with felt or fiber wads the same as gamebore?
I did some research on this and talked to a guy from Kent/Gamebore on the phone a couple years ago. He would not quote an actual number but around 7000 psi if memory serves. The Polywad (spelling?) and RST brands in the states are running around 5000. Excellent low recoil stuff, not available in Canada unfortunately.
Blastattack
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Winnipeg MB
Right, well I have been looking at SXS shotguns and have believed the apparent myth that these old guns are not suited for modern shot-shells. After reading this thread, I am now convinced otherwise, but still wary. Looking at Tradeex's slection of SXS, would any of their listed SXS not be suitable for modern ammo? Or would this be better off put into a new and separate thread?
- Location
- Ft. Mac. Alberta
I would phone and ask Tony or Anthony directly, they are both very helpful and will be able to sell you a decent gun that will be proofed for smokeless
They also have some modern hammer guns on their website as well.
Cat
- Location
- Ft. Mac. Alberta
We were testing some of our low pressure loads the other day, and the 20 gauge load I have with PB recoils far less than the 2 1/2" Gamebore factory stuff !
It really surprised us.
Cat
It really surprised us.
Cat
