Frustrated with scope rail alignment.

snoopycda

snoopycda

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I have a BRNO 600 that was originally chambered for the 223 Rem. It is now chambered for 22-250 Rem.
This rifle has been a pain since day one when trying to zero the scope, i have tried different scopes and different rings. What is happening is, when i finally get her zero'd, I am almost out or absolutely out of adjustment on both turrets. Elevation wont go lower and windage wont go any more to the left.
Ring selection is limited at best for these rifles. So my question is I can shim for windage but not elevation, do i need to take her in and have the integral rails machined to true them with the action? One other solution i thought of was to have her drilled and tapped for weaver style bases, but I think that would tacky.
 
It sounds like a bent barrel or it is not machined ture to the action. Is this possible? I have a hard time believing that Brno messed up on the machining
 
I don't believe the barrel is bent, it does zero i just cant adjust anymore after. If it is though, can it be fixed?
 
Can you use Burris sinature zee rings with the offset inserts? I would think those rings with the different inserts should be enough to sort out a misalignment.
 
gunrunner100 said:
What kind of scope are you using? Some scopes have little in the way of adjustment.
Click to expand...
The current scope is a Tasco 6-24 target model i picked up in a trade. I know it is not a quality piece, but i have tried others with the same results so i dont suspect the scope. Barrel maybe but unlikely. The barrel is not free floating, (just checked) this could be worth investigating. By the way, I love your sig-line, I may use that from time to time if that's ok.
Thanks for your replies, much appreciated.
 
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You said rings are limited at best -- what rings have you tried?

I have owned and used more of these BRNO's than I care to remember and I cant recall one that had a problem dovetail... could happen as with anything tho.

Did the rifle ever shoot well with a scope or is this a new buy?

I do agree that some scopes may not give good adjustment ----

With BRNO rings, I have never had an issue of centering a scope. Leupold neither. You may wish to find some Lynx bases and rings (one or 2 piece bases made in Australia) - the bases slips onto the dovetail but they have a cone (like Conetrol) that the bottom of the ring slides onto,and is held by 2 opposing adjustment screws that allows windage adjustment. A bit finicky but strong and accurate when completed.

For that matter, Conetrol does make good set ups for the BRNOs. Again, tricky to get those rings to snap onto the scope, but when all done right - they are strong.

For elevation if you still have issues, a shim under the base will help a lot.
 
aaah _ I re-read your post and it has been re-chambered.

That can change something - not for me to figure out, but I have seen that happen on a rifle of mine when the bbl was removed and replaced after re-chambering. I thought I would slap the old scope on its bases and be back to normal, but it was not the case. I had to fuss with that one (ended up using Burris rings with the plastic offset inserts to get it good). It was not a BRNO tho. But the principle applies.
 
farshot said:
aaah _ I re-read your post and it has been re-chambered.

That can change something - not for me to figure out, but I have seen that happen on a rifle of mine when the bbl was removed and replaced after re-chambering. I thought I would slap the old scope on its bases and be back to normal, but it was not the case. I had to fuss with that one (ended up using Burris rings with the plastic offset inserts to get it good). It was not a BRNO tho. But the principle applies.
Click to expand...

After checking for free float, (and not finding any) i think i will try this route. I switched from Lynx to the Leupold hoping that was the easy fix. I haven't had the rifle out of its stock and that may be my issue. This is a rifle I have owned for a long time (1993) but haven't given it the attention it deserves. I re-chambered so i would have a fast twist 22-250, thinking back i would probably do things a little different today. It currently wears the as discussed Tasco and a Harris bi-pod. Looks good, now i would like to see how well she will do with 60+ grain bullets. Did somebody say long range coyote?
 
My first suspicion is that your scope is having a problem as few bases/base mounting holes from quality factory rifle makers
such asBrno, are ever misaligned so much that a scope's windage adjustment and/or base windage adjustment would not correct it at least to one range/distance that you want to zero at.
A barrel that bent would be obvious and in need to replace, so is quite unlikely a cause.
However, I have had two new firearms in the past 3 years that I immediately saw had misaligned weaver screws base holes. Have you returned your scope to original factory setting-centered??? The old counting the clicks for elevation and windage in both directions and setting both back to half way?
Unless your alignment is so bad (and it would be apparent by eyeballing) that the windage can't get you centered you probably have a stuck vertical reticle or the vertical reticle is already maxed out to one side. I now use a long alignment bar on the ring bases and am gradulally changing all bases to those with windage adjustment on any rifles that I intend to fire and want to be accurate out to all practical distances. In a very very rare situation I have redrilled one or more base holes to mount a windage adj' base(s). For what it's worth, knowing the quality of your rifle and assuming quality rings (+/- windage adjustable rings or bases) I would think that your scope gummed up or damaged and your Brno deservedly in need of a new scope. Best wishes....'would really like to hear what the final answer is.....k:D
 
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westkraut said:
My first suspicion is that your scope is having a problem as few bases/base mounting holes from quality factory rifle makers
such asBrno, are ever misaligned so much that a scope's windage adjustment and/or base windage adjustment would not correct it at least to one range/distance that you want to zero at.
A barrel that bent would be obvious and in need to replace, so is quite unlikely a cause.
However, I have had two new firearms in the past 3 years that I immediately saw had misaligned weaver screws base holes. Have you returned your scope to original factory setting-centered??? The old counting the clicks for elevation and windage in both directions and setting both back to half way?
Unless your alignment is so bad (and it would be apparent by eyeballing) that the windage can't get you centered you probably have a stuck vertical reticle or the vertical reticle is already maxed out to one side. I now use a long alignment bar on the ring bases and am gradulally changing all bases to those with windage adjustment on any rifles that I intend to fire and want to be accurate out to all practical distances. In a very very rare situation I have redrilled one or more base holes to mount a windage adj' base(s). For what it's worth, knowing the quality of your rifle and assuming quality rings (+/- windage adjustable rings or bases) I would think that your scope gummed up or damaged and your Brno deservedly in need of a new scope. Best wishes....'would really like to hear what the final answer is.....k:D
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The scope was my first suspicion, then the rings. Neither changed when they were swapped out. It may have bedding issues to look at. I will take it apart when I have some spare times and free float the barrel and possibly re-bed the action. The ring mounts are integral to the action and miss-alignment is rare. I wish i could find rings with wind-age and elevation adjustment built in.
 
The leupold bases have lateral adjustment, I would suggest getting a set of those, and a different scope. I say use a different scope because you can rule out the possibility the scope is pooched that way.

Having a rifle that wont group because something is wonky can be really frustrating sometimes, usually to fix it you gotta throw money at optics and bases for a bit, a few smiths will be able to figure it out, others will give you a bill and tell you it seems fine (in my experience).
 
cody c said:
The leupold bases have lateral adjustment, I would suggest getting a set of those, and a different scope. I say use a different scope because you can rule out the possibility the scope is pooched that way.

Having a rifle that wont group because something is wonky can be really frustrating sometimes, usually to fix it you gotta throw money at optics and bases for a bit, a few smiths will be able to figure it out, others will give you a bill and tell you it seems fine (in my experience).
Click to expand...

i have changed both scope and rings. independently and together. the obvious is not working. the results are the same, time to move on to other solutions. windage is easy, just shim the offending side. elevation is a little tricky as i need the scope to be lower on the front. i could shim the ring on the back as a #####fix.
 
I have a BRNO 600 that was originally chambered for the 223 Rem.
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.. Unlikely. The ZKK 600 was chambered in 270/30.06 length cartridges. If it was a 223 it was a ZKK 601; the ZKK 601 was also chambered in .243 and .308 which would be an ideal length action for a 22/250

Does the rifle group ok with the iron sights??? if it does your scope or the bases or the installation is flawed.
If not, read on ---

If they simply rechambered the original barrel you may wish to pull the barreled action from the stock and check for a "possible" source of your problem. "Some" (including most earlier) ZKK's used a bolt through the forend of the stock that engaged a dovetail that rode in a slot under the rear site barrel boss. If your rifle was equipped in this fashion you need to make sure that the dovetail is at 9 O'Clock - incidentally if the original factory foresight is still there and hasnt been moved -- it will be/should be at 12. of course.

It is possible that this dovetail arrangement is somehow too tight or fouling with the stock (eg not set up properly) OR the barrel was remounted in a fashion that allowed the dovetail to rest hard against the forestock ... that certainly could cause the rifle to group shots in a manner that would require full scope adjustment to correct. If so equipped .. you could try removing the screw and its associated dovetail and ensure that the underside of the site boss (where the slot is) is not exerting pressure against the stock when the action is snugged up. The stocks inletted for this arrangement have a small cutout to accomodate the slot so that it does not exert pressure.


BTW ... IF you do have this forend screw/barrel dovetail arrangement. That screw will have to be removed .. along with the other two action screws in order to remove the action from the stock... if the screw is there ... let us know as it is a little bit tricky reinstalling it properly.
 
AP said:
.. Unlikely. The ZKK 600 was chambered in 270/30.06 length cartridges. If it was a 223 it was a ZKK 601; the ZKK 601 was also chambered in .243 and .308 which would be an ideal length action for a 22/250

Does the rifle group ok with the iron sights??? if it does your scope or the bases or the installation is flawed.
If not, read on ---

If they simply rechambered the original barrel you may wish to pull the barreled action from the stock and check for a "possible" source of your problem. "Some" (including most earlier) ZKK's used a bolt through the forend of the stock that engaged a dovetail that rode in a slot under the rear site barrel boss. If your rifle was equipped in this fashion you need to make sure that the dovetail is at 9 O'Clock - incidentally if the original factory foresight is still there and hasnt been moved -- it will be/should be at 12. of course.

It is possible that this dovetail arrangement is somehow too tight or fouling with the stock (eg not set up properly) OR the barrel was remounted in a fashion that allowed the dovetail to rest hard against the forestock ... that certainly could cause the rifle to group shots in a manner that would require full scope adjustment to correct. If so equipped .. you could try removing the screw and its associated dovetail and ensure that the underside of the site boss (where the slot is) is not exerting pressure against the stock when the action is snugged up. The stocks inletted for this arrangement have a small cutout to accomodate the slot so that it does not exert pressure.


BTW ... IF you do have this forend screw/barrel dovetail arrangement. That screw will have to be removed .. along with the other two action screws in order to remove the action from the stock... if the screw is there ... let us know as it is a little bit tricky reinstalling it properly.
Click to expand...

This sounds like it may have some merit! Thank you for your reply.
I always get the 600 series mixed up, but i bought the rifle of of a friend back in 1990 and re-chambered it sometime after. After the Re-chamber there were feeding issues and the follower was replaced with a Remington model seven follower. This solved most of the feeding issues (follower no longer exits the magazine after the last shot is ejected)
The re-chamber at at that time was only 125.00, I am not too impressed with the job that was done, but i guess you get what you pay for. The smith should have checked for feeding and ejection prior to returning the rifle to his customer. (I would think.)
At that time rifles were more expensive relatively speaking than they are now so it seemed like a good idea. We were on a single income with two little ones to feed. My opportunities to shoot were few so testing wasn't done until well after the re-chamber.
Anyway, it is what i am stuck with now.
 
Yes - it is a pity but re-chambering any firearm to a cartridge of different diameter is ALWAYS a challenge unless the feeding is done from a removable box magazine that incorporates feed lips. Some manufacturers cant get it right themselves even when they are initially building a rifle (FTF's, double feeding and stovepipes on the first or last round are not that uncommon) so for a guy operating out of his basement to get it right when he is CHANGING the action to a new cartridge and associated contour ... is amazing imho.

Also few gunsmiths really have ready access to a range to prove the firearm and that part of QA often gets left to the client ... too bad. European gunsmiths charge through the nose to install scopes (and rings bases) but that invariable includes zeroing the rifle for the client.



As mentioned not ALL ZKK's have this forearm screw but it is a very well designed and effective mechanism when properly set-up. First check to see if you have a screw head under the forearm adjacent to the rear sight (I assume you have the factory barrel still and the rear site is there?) ... no screw would mean the next steps are less likely to be productive. Keep us posted as you progress


(modifying an action to accommodate a different cartridge like this properly - eg larger diameter etc - separates the men from the boys. I am familiar with one gunsmith who could get this right (but told me he wouldnt do it again...although I think he told everyone the same thing) years ago it was a gunsmith north of Toronto that operated a outfit called Trillus iirc .. he converted a very nice Argentine M98 (that I acquired from Ganderite) to 338 Win Mag. This required both the rails to be reshaped and the box to be lengthened.)
 
AP said:
Yes - it is a pity but re-chambering any firearm to a cartridge of different diameter is ALWAYS a challenge unless the feeding is done from a removable box magazine that incorporates feed lips. Some manufacturers cant get it right themselves even when they are initially building a rifle (FTF's, double feeding and stovepipes on the first or last round are not that uncommon) so for a guy operating out of his basement to get it right when he is CHANGING the action to a new cartridge and associated contour ... is amazing imho.

Also few gunsmiths really have ready access to a range to prove the firearm and that part of QA often gets left to the client ... too bad. European gunsmiths charge through the nose to install scopes (and rings bases) but that invariable includes zeroing the rifle for the client.



As mentioned not ALL ZKK's have this forearm screw but it is a very well designed and effective mechanism when properly set-up. First check to see if you have a screw head under the forearm adjacent to the rear sight (I assume you have the factory barrel still and the rear site is there?) ... no screw would mean the next steps are less likely to be productive. Keep us posted as you progress


(modifying an action to accommodate a different cartridge like this properly - eg larger diameter etc - separates the men from the boys. I am familiar with one gunsmith who could get this right (but told me he wouldnt do it again...although I think he told everyone the same thing) years ago it was a gunsmith north of Toronto that operated a outfit called Trillus iirc .. he converted a very nice Argentine M98 (that I acquired from Ganderite) to 338 Win Mag. This required both the rails to be reshaped and the box to be lengthened.)
Click to expand...

The magazine had to be widened a bit to get proper stacking. the 601 was not offered in 22-250 but was long enough. The iron dovetailed rear sight is missing but the sleeve is still there. I will separate the stock and action when i have time (maybe this weekend) Thanks again for your help, I will keep you updated.
 
Hope this works. I have taken her apart and sanded the barrel channel to achieve a free float situation. From the pics you can see the ring and rail I am talking about. Maybe the rings are not wide enough?
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Well here's what I would try... reverse the front ring.

Before you do
a) make sure that the ring scope combo is not loose on the rifle .. if it is loose correct that before anything
else and refire the rifle to see what it does
b) if everything is tight then centre the windage and elevation adjustments on the scope.
c) place the rifle in a rest (cardboard box with a "V" groove works) and boresight at a vertical target like a broom handle at 20 yds or a telephone pole at 100. Once you have the bore centred ... without disturbing the rifle look through the scope and see where the reticle is .... presumably it is of to the side etc. Make a mental note of how far off it is
d) if the reticle is not centred THEN remove the front ring and reverse it and remount the scope. Go through the same boresight procedure to see if that brings your windage closer to centre

that may help on the windage issue. as for elevation /.... it may help as well as scopes do not track exactly square when the adjustments are at the extreme.



Also I noticed you do NOT have the dovetail setup under the foresight boss and the stock is not drilled for one... still ensure that the boss is not being effected by the stock by careful relieving at that point ... ALSO DONT TOUCH IT if there is no evidence of bearing there. These stocks can be hard to find and the less you take off the better. All ZKK's I have seen (and I own 5) will shoot great and come from the factory with a test target that is easily duplicated to prove it!


(added ... before doing the above also check the rear ring recoil "notch" to ensure that it is being drawn in fully ... the way those rings work if the rear notch doesnt fully enter the corresponding cut-out on the action dovetail the rear ring will not be properly in line with the front ring which will throw the scope alignment off)


BTW ... looking at one of your photo's I would also loosen the front ring and slide it back so it sits a little farther to the rear on the dovetail ... as the rings crowd the forward dovetail groove where it tapers off they may not centre properly
 
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