My 1911 travels: Norinco & SAM ....
- Thread starter Ticketed
- Start date
I have two SAM Stainless Commanders, one in 9 & one in 45. They are two of the tightest 1911s I have. I have had 3 Kimbers, a Sig 1911, Colt Gold Cup and Colt Combat Elite, Springfield Armory GI, Ruger SR1911 and 4 Norincos and none of them are any more solid than the SAMs. Frames & slides are almost completely devoid of machining marks, they are not cluttered up with markings and both are consistently in-the-black guns when I'm in the groove. They have nice sights (appear to be Novak style) which aids the accuracy.
They're also available in stainless which I prefer so that's a plus. Norincos are a good deal but the SAMs are definitely worth the extra $100 or so just for the extra fit & finish. At the SHOT Show I spoke to the guy who does quality control for SAM. I was impressed with what he had to say. They test fire every gun and reject about 2% of production.
The cast vs. forged argument is really a bit passé. Ruger uses cast frames & no one seems to question their durability & I think SAM is in the same boat.
The SAMs lack a few niceties like rollover grooves in the ejection port, have non-ventilated triggers, straight rather than angled slide serrations and the extractors both needed a little tuning to adjust ejection angle. However, they are $450-550 guns so that's not unexpected.
Overall I'll be surprised if you were not happy with one.
One last point - Norincos have been around for near 20 years which likely explains why there are more comments about them. SAM about 3-4 years so keep that in mind.
They're also available in stainless which I prefer so that's a plus. Norincos are a good deal but the SAMs are definitely worth the extra $100 or so just for the extra fit & finish. At the SHOT Show I spoke to the guy who does quality control for SAM. I was impressed with what he had to say. They test fire every gun and reject about 2% of production.
The cast vs. forged argument is really a bit passé. Ruger uses cast frames & no one seems to question their durability & I think SAM is in the same boat.
The SAMs lack a few niceties like rollover grooves in the ejection port, have non-ventilated triggers, straight rather than angled slide serrations and the extractors both needed a little tuning to adjust ejection angle. However, they are $450-550 guns so that's not unexpected.
Overall I'll be surprised if you were not happy with one.
One last point - Norincos have been around for near 20 years which likely explains why there are more comments about them. SAM about 3-4 years so keep that in mind.
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nicely put Ted
i think it could not have been said better
i like what you said about the cast VS forged argument
i encourage people to read more about both processes because most will find that in many many cases cast is as strong as forged or stronger
ohh and about the GSG conversion i tried it and had issues and read where many owners of various 1911's were also having problems some times it works and sometimes not for what it cost i decided to just buy a whole GSG 1911 22 it was about $125 more than the kit
best thing i could have done 9000+ down range with it now and it shoots as well as the day i got it and all i have had to do was clean it
i think it could not have been said better
i like what you said about the cast VS forged argument
i encourage people to read more about both processes because most will find that in many many cases cast is as strong as forged or stronger
ohh and about the GSG conversion i tried it and had issues and read where many owners of various 1911's were also having problems some times it works and sometimes not for what it cost i decided to just buy a whole GSG 1911 22 it was about $125 more than the kit
best thing i could have done 9000+ down range with it now and it shoots as well as the day i got it and all i have had to do was clean it
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Hey Ted_Dent! ...
Very, very appreciated feedback. ... (and everyone else too!)
I'll be honest in saying that in weighing the pros and cons of forged vs cast, you are right in that it is a dated and irrelavant arguement. I didn't realize Ruger had cast frames either. A link on the subject posted earlier in this thread made for some interesting and very comparible opinions.
The Norc is tempting because of cost.
The SAM adds that much more for that little more.
My main objective is to replace the 22 pistol I sold, but if I can do it with a conversion kit and get two calibers out of it, then I'd be in.
***For those with new Norinco's in hand - could you post a good pic or two?
The internet is full of poor image examples.
Like so many have said before, and again, and still: I may just have to buy both.
Very, very appreciated feedback. ... (and everyone else too!)
I'll be honest in saying that in weighing the pros and cons of forged vs cast, you are right in that it is a dated and irrelavant arguement. I didn't realize Ruger had cast frames either. A link on the subject posted earlier in this thread made for some interesting and very comparible opinions.
The Norc is tempting because of cost.
The SAM adds that much more for that little more.
My main objective is to replace the 22 pistol I sold, but if I can do it with a conversion kit and get two calibers out of it, then I'd be in.
***For those with new Norinco's in hand - could you post a good pic or two?
The internet is full of poor image examples.
Like so many have said before, and again, and still: I may just have to buy both.
I will jump in on the SAM side. I have the 45 commander and am ordering the 9mm stainless commander for the wife soon. To me they are the best value in a 1911 currently. Just a nice tight fitting accurate no frills 1911. Phillipinos love their 1911's!!
- Location
- Burnaby, BC
I have the NP29 and they shoot really well with simple trigger job. The NP29 are series 70 and i would assume the .45 would be as well, why add extra parts for such a cheap gun??? I just bought a GSG .22 kit. Fits my Remington and Colt Gold Cup NM, but not my Ruger. Shoots better with the nice ammo. Haven't tried the fit on my NP29 frame. The GSG Kit comes with 70 and 80 series - really no point unless you really want to add firing pin block - leave it as 70 and it will still work on 80 frame. There is room for the transfer bar to lift in the slide.
hi ted_dent, I'm looking to buy another 9mm in 1911 platform (this one for accuracy/target shooting) and have my eyes on SAM (Stainless) Commander 9mm as per your reviews. I have a quick question, how tight is the chamber of SAM Stainless Commander 9mm? My SP-01 has quit a bit loose chamber says about .004"-.005" over diameter of the brass case. I understand 9mm have taper case, but when I drop the round in the SP-01 chamber I can rock the round back/forth and left/right easily. This could contribute to reliability of SP-01 design as a combat handgun which will feed most types of 9mm ammo with no issues, but accuracy is a trade off. Thanks.
- Location
- Burnaby, BC
I think accuracy has much more to do with barrel to slide fit than free play in chamber. I have a Shadow and a NP29 and the chamber fit is the same. The barrel fit on the Shadow is much tighter than the NP29 with the barrel bushing - most guys will replace the barrel bushing to get tighter fit. My Shadow is more accurate - however the feed angle of my CZ seems to be tighter and more fussy with OAL of cartridges than some of my other 9s.
Sorry for the late reply. Yes, it does have one or two flyer every 10 rounds (shooting SA from the rest at 25 yards). I'm waiting to see SP-01 Shadow Targets from CZ Custom (all the test target that comes with the gun have only one raged hole) which is far more accurate than mine. Otherwise I want to try 1911 platform in 9mm.
I've shot a rental SAM 1911A1 in .45, and it shot tighter than I was really able to give it justice, a year ago. Today I'm stronger, and just last week I handled a SAM 1911A1 9mm at a local store, and I was really happy with the price being just $510, had a really nice trigger, the safety seemed really good and consistent, and the slide/frame fit was tight yet cycled quite smoothly. IMO it was a significantly better product than the Norinco NP-29's I've handled, more so than the price difference would suggest. So while originally I had been looking at NP-29's, I'll be going with a stainless SAM for certain now.
For me, one of the major improvements the SAM offers, is the fact it's made on CNC equipment, which allows the parts to be very consistent in tolerances (unlike the Norcs, at least that I know of). And yet, the company has experience making 1911's by hand all the way back to military contracts for 1911's since the early 1970's...meaning, not only do they use CNC for consistency, but they also have decades of experience in hand-fitting, tunning for reliability, know the quirks of the design.
For me, one of the major improvements the SAM offers, is the fact it's made on CNC equipment, which allows the parts to be very consistent in tolerances (unlike the Norcs, at least that I know of). And yet, the company has experience making 1911's by hand all the way back to military contracts for 1911's since the early 1970's...meaning, not only do they use CNC for consistency, but they also have decades of experience in hand-fitting, tunning for reliability, know the quirks of the design.
easyrider604
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Greater Vancouver, BC
SAM or Norkie. Boils down to your preference between the precision CNC machined cast 4140 steel SAM or conventional machined forged high tensile strength steel Norkie. Really, what's a few ten thousandths of an inch give or take between SAM and a Norkie? After all the original 1911s were probably built on leather belt driven lathes and milling machines and Sgt York shot 7 for 7 for a perfect score and won a Congressional Medal of Honor with the help of his 1911. I went with and will always go with the better steel. Norkies in my safe 4...SAM zero. That's a personal preference only. If the price difference does't bother you (really 150 bucks is not much ammo anyway) and you like the smoother finish of the SAM, go for it. You'll be happy with it for sure. SAM is a very experienced firearms manufacturer in the Phililppines so again no real debate here....SAM and Norkie are both good manufacturers.
define better steel because if your referring to forged VS cast then neither is better than the other just different both have positives and negatives to each it just depends on the application
have a read of this
http://www.sfsa.org/sfsa/pubs/cvf/ecs.php
Pretty decent overview.
I prefer the stainless, so that pushes me towards the SAM. Yes, the Norcs are built by hand, and normally that shouldn't be an issue AT ALL, after all, most firearms and most 1911's were built on manual machines. But, I've heard it said that to get the highest levels of reliability out of 1911's, either requires a really good smith to slick up the action, look for imperfections, OR you can pick a CNC'ed unit and just do your own polishing of surfaces. Personally, I think by the time you factor in a smith's time, the cost difference would be a wash really. I'd bet both the SAM and Norc are similarly accurate, and could be tuned for even tighter accuracy if needed.
The forging vs casting issue might be an issue if I were building a competition IPSC racegun to pound out 100,000 rounds...I might go with the Norc frame. But although I plan to shoot a lot through a SAM, it'll be NOTHING like those numbers, and I suspect SAM knows how to make good castings, probably done so for a very long time now.
I think some Norc 1911's look better than others...those two tone .45's (sport model??) look MUCH nicer than the bog standard NP-29 9mm, which after handling one left me wondering if I really wanted such a homely looking handgun, when the visually nice SAM's were just a bit more money. And I think the Norc blued A1's also look quite decent too. But, I'm looking for stainless and 9mm, and since 9mm has less recoil impulse, I'm even less concerned about the frame being cast than forged! But if I were looking to buy a .45 for high mileage, I'd take serious consideration of the two tone Norc Sport models, or the blued A1 and put some nice grips on them, slick them up myself.
What I didn't care for on the NP-29 included: mag release is WAY oversize and looks like it would be easily bumped at inopportune time, the slide release seemed overly large and unessisary, the finish was...well not as nice in person as I thought it'd be, didn't care for the slide serations, safety overly large, rear iron sight looks awkward and sharp. But really that's all kinda nitpicking for a reliable handgun for such low price...I just was much more impressed with the SAM is all. And i know that other Norc 1911's are nicer than the NP-29. Now...if Norinco were to make stainless 1911's...but maybe that's unrealistic at those prices.
One downside to the Norinco steel: apparently it's so hard that SOME smiths aren't interested in milling the slide for a different rear sight. But there's others who can and will do a good job, so again, a downside, but a very minor one requiring maybe a few more phone calls!
Yea, Chinese made guns are totally banned from import into the USA. That happened because in 1993 or 94, early in the Clinton Administration, customs raided a cargo ship in L.A. from China, filled with all sorts of AK's, suppressed handguns and suppressed SMG's, that were about to be distributed in an illegal smuggling operation to LA gangs. Clinton Admin decided to ban all Norinco and Polytech products by banning guns from import from China. But it's not just for big importers, it also covers individual Canadians just going down temporarily for a competition with a single Norc: an absolute no-go.
Really though, that's not gonna be much issue for many Canadians.
