Ladder interpretation, please

Jerry even the change of light can effect your poI. Were talking about a ladder test here however. If you can not take 10 shots at 500y due to mirage .... ect... than give up because ur screwed to start.


blackwater..... you will hate to accept the fact that wind in your face or from your back will not effect your shot... If you believe it does, maby work on your breathing.
 
Okay Tikka6xc, I appreciate your knowledge ok? I'm not into a pissing match.

That said, I wasn't simply talking about a head or tail wind. In this instance I'm talking about a severe downdraft.

Take your ballistic calculator of choice and plug in a 20 to 60 km/h crosswind and tell me it says zero. Didn't did it?

Now rotate that wind 90 degrees. That's all I'm talking about.
 
Tikka6xc said:
Jerry even the change of light can effect your poI. Were talking about a ladder test here however. If you can not take 10 shots at 500y due to mirage .... ect... than give up because ur screwed to start.


blackwater..... you will hate to accept the fact that wind in your face or from your back will not effect your shot... If you believe it does, maby work on your breathing.
Click to expand...

If you ever get a chance to visit the OK Valley, let me know, bring out a rifle and we can go sling some lead.

I understand what you are trying to say but I have just seen way too much interferance from atmosphere to accept your conclusions.

And if you feel tailwinds and headwinds dont affect your POI, well...

Jerry
 
Mystic Precision said:
If you ever get a chance to visit the OK Valley, let me know, bring out a rifle and we can go sling some lead.

I understand what you are trying to say but I have just seen way too much interferance from atmosphere to accept your conclusions.

And if you feel tailwinds and headwinds dont affect your POI, well...

Jerry
Click to expand...

Hey Jerry, I hope that offer might stand for anyone who might be out your way some time?
 
Guys, I thank you all for the advice and experience. Tikka6XC, I do know what you're driving at and there's no doubt you have worlds of experience over me. I realize a more definitive interpretation is likely at longer range but when you factor in thngs like shooter ability and his current inability to read wind and compensate for it effectively, what do hard results then actually tell you? Right now, I have no really good control group - this is part of my learning and experience curve. Someday, I'm gonna be good enough to kick your nephew's ass! Well, maybe...:p

With regard to mirage, just because I can't read it like some guys (but I can see it very well) doesn't mean I, or anyone else should give up the long range game if they like the game - proficient or otherwise. Other than this, I'm not even going to try comment on mirage other than here on the prairie, it's very evident. And been an intense debate around here lately that I don't want to be part of.

Rooster
 
No worries - it's entertaining to a certain extent and this one hasn't gone crazy. All good stuff. I'd be a fool to think I couldn't learn something from debates like these, which is precisely the reason I hang around here and try to participate once in a while. Sometimes, however, it's really unfortunate that some of these get into personal-level garbage, given the amount of knowledge and experience of so many members.

R
 
No doubt.

In my 40 years or so of shooting/hunting I can honestly say I've learned more about shooting and handloading since I started reading here.

It gets a bit testy sometimes but that's to be expected with a mostly anonymous group.

Actually, I'm surprised it's not worse to tell you the truth. Anyway, tight groups!
 
I agree with blackwater, sorry for the side track and sorry to u as well blackwater. I hope you do not think I dout your shooting ability and experience.


Shooters will argue about everything on a forum but 100% support in real life.
 
Well, I got out today. Unfortunately, between domestic obligations and work calling, my shoot ended up being a mad rush. +4C and wind was everywhere between 5:00 to 8:00 at 15 km/h (so the internet said). And mirage!!! Holy crap! It wasn't bad when the sun was behind a cloud but as soon as it came out, it just made pudding out of my sight picture. When the wind died for a bit and the sun was out, damn stuff would just boil like crazy. I had a hell of a time:mad: I honestly don't know how you guys do it. The conditions today were the worst I've ever shot in for testing. I think I learned a few things though.

I didn't have time to set up another target board further downrange, so I shot at 264 again. Not overly happy with the results but I don't think it was a write-off either.
Hard to tell much but this is part of what I dealt with today. I tweaked and dialed and fiddle-f**ked around but couldn't get that thing to clear up. I obviously don't know what I'm doing.


I switched gears a bit today. Decided to shoot groups from the charge range around shots 6-9 from the ladder I first posted instead of doing another ladder. Each target is a different charge weight - 0.3 grain increments per group. Completely pooched target 7. Over- corrected elevation from target 1 to get my shots below POA, then got it right for target 3 and left it alone. Targets 1, 3, & 5 are all 4 shot groups. Don't ask......


Decent vertical, I think.


Again, not too bad for me, considering I couldn't see! I don't know, what do you guys think? Is there anything here?


Unfortunately, the forecast doesn't look like things will get any better by the time I have to leave for work again. I'm writin' a letter......H:S:
Rooster
 
As long as ur breathing was good targets 5 & 6 look the best for lack of vertical. Being beside each other maby there is a node there. Worth trying again with a load right between them I think.

8 is good as well for horizontal. What happend by 8 ? Did you get more comfortable with the trigger? Any body change ? Have a smoke? The best load will give you zero vertical spread.

If you could bring out loads 5, 5.5, 6 & 8 to shoot again when your not so rushed and in a good mood I would be interested in the results.


Also, what kinda scope are u using? I love ur reticule.
 
Thanks, I was thinking I'd load #8 again and possibly either side of it and do the same around #6. I'll include #5 charge as well. Funny you should mention the mood and position, etc. by the time I got to target 8. Between target 5 and the first shot on 8, it took me about 1-1/2 hrs to shoot. Sometimes laying behind that thing for 10 solid minutes waiting for a lull. Had a bit of a fit, rattled off 10 quick rounds of .308 at steel, went for a bit of a walk and tried to get my eyes back in my head. Eventually plugged another mag into that scrappy old iron-sighted Norc M14 and got a first round, unsupported prone hit on my 500 yard, 18" steel gong! Needless to say, I immediately put the dang thing down. Didn't want to ruin the mood that was instantly lifted by that. Maybe that's what it was. I climbed back in behind the .284 and ran the rest off in about 20 seconds before the condition changed too drastically!

Going to load more tomorrow night and hopefully there will be an environmentally reasonable, unscheduled day prior to Tuesday where I can have another go at it. Thanks for your thoughts again Tikka6xc. And the scope is a Zeiss Conquest 6.5-20 with the Rapid-Z 1000 reticle. I like the reticle too but I wish the stadia were consistantly spaced instead of like a BDC type reticle. Going to go visit Clay at Prophet River in the next little while to see if I can make him "earn" a NF sale:rolleyes:
 
I should add that yes, I've been having trouble with form. I have a crappy bag (Protektor on the way from Mystic Precision) and have hardly done any shooting at all since I mucked up my knee last September. There's no question it ALL needs work. And believe me when I say hearing what you guys have to offer is invaluable.

I appreciate every bit!
Rooster
 
I think your doing great at shooting at 264yrd under those contitions, 5,6 and 8 would be my choice, wind reading is part of your groups but thats hard to master, are you shooting with flags? once I find the charge load I want to play with I do a seating depth test, I start at 10 thou jump, 5 thou, O, 5 thou jam and finally a 10 thou jam, have you done a seating test on your loads?

regards, G
 
If there's room to be safe, I'd look a little past #8 and at 300 yds minimum. Appears you may be near another node there, and perhaps your fastest node, which is where you want to be.

After that I would take the best and play with seating depth at 400-500 yds, being mindful with pressures as you adjust depth.
 
Thanks Mr Shave. What I have is strips of surveyor's or flagging tape tied to a post at the targets (you can see the orange tape in the picture through the scope). Often yesterday, the tape at 100 was pointing southeast and the tape at 264 was NE. One would die right down while the other would still be happily flipping away.... Yuck.

This may incite a stoning but...... I'm running the Bergers jammed .015. Aside from yesterday, I'm using virgin brass with a super-consistant average of .012 less headspace length than what the fired shells measure. I'm jamming to try to at least mitigate the stretching that would otherwise happen with this length difference. I don't know if I have enough neck tension to prevent the case from moving forward once the firing pin strikes but I've managed to convince at least one of my other personalities that it's a good thing. Once I have everything formed then I'd like to run everything with a jump if I can.

I planned on testing seating depths after i got a good charge figured out - one variable at a time. I know some will say this is backwards but for the reason described above, this is the proceedure I'm using. The charge weight at target 8 was showing some scrubbing on the headstamp face, ever so slight cratering, but the primer edges were still very nicely rounded. I think at the current seating depth, I'll stop there. Once I find a suitable jump distance, I'll play again with powder over the max I've shot so far. I was thinking the very same thing, skypilot:)

Rooster
 
Consider - Fireforming all brass before getting too worried about tuning. The expansion of virgin brass is not always consistent and at LR, it will act like varying powder charges. I would certainly look at load #8 and higher and see what happens. Certainly 5 to 6 are promising and might be better when temps soar.

Would you consider using a different front rest? Unless you are very comfy with a harris, it can be a huge source of error as it bounces around. Maybe a piece of carpet under the feet? If not using my MPOD, I will grab my pedestal rest and use that for inital tuning. I am not a great Harris user so will induce error into my results because of it.

I would reload the fireformed brass you have now using loads #5 to #"9". More stable front rest and more flags. Put them every 50yds and just take note of the wind pattern. Doesn't matter how wonky they are as long as you shoot in same mess.

As for mirage, learn to make it your friend. It will tell you alot about the air you are shooting through and I trust it more then flags, especially the big ones of varied material used at most ranges.

If you have a dollar store nearby, they seem to offer Canada flags for dirt cheap. I use the 18"X 12" ones (or there abouts for size). Flagging tape will get overwhelmed by wind speed and that ends the info it can give you. The real flag can also show direction switches as it turns with the wind.

Unless you happen to live with early morning dead air, learning to shoot with the wind and mirage is a necessity. After a while you will get used to it and it will show you repeating patterns. If the load is working well, the bullet will land in the center with your "Proper" adjustments. Then you know you have a good load.

Jerry
 
Thanks Jerry. I do have a pedestal but have been trying to apply the "practice the way you intend to use it" sort of school of thought. However, thinking about this and the stage I'm at, maybe this is the wrong theory right now. Again, I've not shot with anyone with the knowledge I'm seeking, so I don't know what I don't know. With this, as most things, there seem to be two distinct opinions on use of a bipod; loading and not loading. I suppose it's a matter of what suits the individual. I've tried both with varying results and I suspect the issue is consistency. Once that Protektor arrives, I'll go to the pedestal.

What I might do in the coming days when conditions are not so good is load up a bunch of the SMK's in the virgin brass and go shoot further out. Practice and fireforming. I got 300 of them for a good price and I intended to use them for this anyway. I'm certain the practice will do me good and will also offer wind and mirage observation.

Thanks for the Dollar Store tip. I'll proceed to make my range a little more patriotic;)

Rooster
 
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