Question for the Swiss Arms Classic owners ...

leonk05 said:
swiss trigger is very nice. pay attention to barrel twist. they come in 7 and 10. Target models with the flip sights are in 7, my blue star is in 10. shooting about 3 inch groups(10) at 130y with federal bulk plinking ammo. this is after approx. 6000 rounds down the pipe. Only one FTF so far. I like the balance with a heavy zeiss scope on mine. this is my go to gun and is worth every penny.
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What exactly should one expect as far as a difference in performance/accuracy with the difference between the 1:7/1:10 twist barrels? When people on these threads are talking 1.25 MOA groups, which barrel is that with? Is this with 55, 62gr. or heavier bullets?

I've been told before that these rifles shoot great with all bullets in the 1:7, but the 1:10s aren't worth a $h!+. Are you restricted to a certain weight of bullet depending on which barrel you have? There would have to be some kind of difference, I would imagine, or they wouldn't offer them with 2 different twists. But what do I know - I've only been running around trying to find a NR CG with 1:7 for over 2 years here. Now I'm starting to think I was steered in the wrong direction...
 
Siggy Stardust said:
I've only been running around trying to find a NR CG with 1:7 for over 2 years here. Now I'm starting to think I was steered in the wrong direction...
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I legitimatly do not mean any offence at all, but if you've been looking for a NR Classic Green with a 1in7" twist barrel for over two years, you need to bare down a look a little harder. I know their not as common as the 1in10" twists but they are out there, and you just need to look. The EE is the best source for used Swiss Rifles in the country, check the Black and Green Rifles section every couple of days for the next few months, and when you do use the "search" function and search for the word "Swiss", this will narrow you down to a page or two, you'll find what your looking for.

Good Luck
 
Siggy Stardust said:
What exactly should one expect as far as a difference in performance/accuracy with the difference between the 1:7/1:10 twist barrels? When people on these threads are talking 1.25 MOA groups, which barrel is that with? Is this with 55, 62gr. or heavier bullets?

I've been told before that these rifles shoot great with all bullets in the 1:7, but the 1:10s aren't worth a $h!+. Are you restricted to a certain weight of bullet depending on which barrel you have? There would have to be some kind of difference, I would imagine, or they wouldn't offer them with 2 different twists. But what do I know - I've only been running around trying to find a NR CG with 1:7 for over 2 years here. Now I'm starting to think I was steered in the wrong direction...
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The Swiss are using the 1/10 for a reason. IT shoots 62 grain projectiles just fine. In North America there has been a trend towards heavier 223 ammo, so guys have been requesting 1/7 twist. Either twist will shoot just fine. I have found numerous 1/7's on the EE and EE only, just have to ask. They are out there.
 
1/7 was only for NATO guns that need to fire trace

1/9 and 1/10 is the best for 55-62gr, unless your only firing 62gr or greater you do not need or should us a 1/7" berrel!

Remember master of all, jack of none
 
I sold mine and regret it big time :(

I am going to buy another one but this time go with the flat top :)

It is hands down the best NR rifle in Canada period. I have tried the XCR and Tavor and hate them both. The Swiss arms is one of the best combat rifles out there second only to the C8A3 ;)
 
I had one for a few years.
Outstanding build quality, reliability and all that.
Yes, a bit heavier (esp. on the front end).
Mind you, if I had to do it again, for my purposes, I would have stuck with a low budget CZ-858. Cheaper to buy and feed (no reloading though), also NR, lighter, but less accurate, and less refined.
With a CZ-858, I wouldn't feel guilty about not treating it like the piece of art that the Swiss is.
 
Yeah, I've had a couple ads up here on the EE over a significant time and eventually got fed up. A few guys came back with nice units, but they were flat-tops while I'm looking for something with the open diopter sights. Even though I disticntly said "1:7 twist" and "no import markings, guys keep trying to sell me 1:10s or units with import markings on them. That, and sometimes they can't even tell me what the rifling twist is... To drop that kind of $$ on something and not know exactly what you have seems a little goofy to me, but hey - I guess not everyone has to save up for one like me.

The tragic thing is that there are a few good rifles out there that have been defaced with import markings like TSE, and I refuse to drop big $$ on what should should be an exquisite piece of precision engineering with somebody's free advertising on it. A lot of folks seem to not mind this though - maybe I'm just a prude. It's like "Hey, that's some sweet rifle you got there and I'd gladly pay what you're asking for it - just too bad someone wrote all over it cause now I'm not interested at all." It's like going to buy a really nice car only to find that someone's been riding around with their kid in the back, cheerios all over the floor, OJ spilled on the seat and felt-marker scribbled on the inside of the door. "Well, yeah it is a BMW,but...."
 
Like others have said, unless you want to shoot really heavy bullets you do not need 1/7. If you can't shoot nice groups with a 1/10 twist rifle the problem is the shooter. I have never had a problem shooting out to 600 yds accurately with my 1/10 using 55-62 grain bullets. If it is really windy out the poodle shooter goes back in the truck anyway and the big guns come out.
 
Siggy Stardust said:
Yeah, I've had a couple ads up here on the EE over a significant time and eventually got fed up. A few guys came back with nice units, but they were flat-tops while I'm looking for something with the open diopter sights. Even though I disticntly said "1:7 twist" and "no import markings, guys keep trying to sell me 1:10s or units with import markings on them. That, and sometimes they can't even tell me what the rifling twist is... To drop that kind of $$ on something and not know exactly what you have seems a little goofy to me, but hey - I guess not everyone has to save up for one like me.

The tragic thing is that there are a few good rifles out there that have been defaced with import markings like TSE, and I refuse to drop big $$ on what should should be an exquisite piece of precision engineering with somebody's free advertising on it. A lot of folks seem to not mind this though - maybe I'm just a prude. It's like "Hey, that's some sweet rifle you got there and I'd gladly pay what you're asking for it - just too bad someone wrote all over it cause now I'm not interested at all." It's like going to buy a really nice car only to find that someone's been riding around with their kid in the back, cheerios all over the floor, OJ spilled on the seat and felt-marker scribbled on the inside of the door. "Well, yeah it is a BMW,but...."
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Ya I remember your ad, I also remember thinking there it was un likely you were going to find what you were looking for because of how specific you were. Instead of posting an ad, try searching yourself, when people are selling stuff, they want to have interested parties contact them, not the other way around. I find posting ads doesn't work the same as shopping the EE yourself.

Otherwise, there are very few SAN rifles without the Shooting edge markings in the country. I'm not sure how many but if I had to, I would guess maybe 10% came without the markings, give or take. So asking for that combined with the 1in7" twist barrel, limits your field quite a bit. And yea, I think your being a prude ;)

It's also quite common for a product to be manufactured and then distributed by two separate companies. The manufacturer will almost always mark the product to indicate who produced it, but it's also quite common to see the distributors markings somewhere on the product also. The Shooting Edge went through a lot of effort to bring these rifles in so many years ago, and I for one am glad they did it. I mean here you are complaining, and yet the markings on the rifles show me one thing: The Shooting Edge was so serious and put forth so much effort that SWISS ARMS, actually manufactured and tagged these rifles CANADIAN. As in they were manufactured specifically for the Canadian Market, at least the markings would suggest this. I am very grateful that they did all this, otherwise we wouldn't be shooting them.
 
Got a Classic Green 1-7 NR (including green furniture) with lots of mags for a great price (to me) on the EE about 3 months ago after keeping an eye out for months. Shoots great, is a fantastic gun and is everything i dreamed it would be. It immediately leaped to the top of my never sell list. Funny thing though, i can't the see TSE logo when i shoulder it and squint downrange.
 
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Siggy Stardust said:
What exactly should one expect as far as a difference in performance/accuracy with the difference between the 1:7/1:10 twist barrels? When people on these threads are talking 1.25 MOA groups, which barrel is that with? Is this with 55, 62gr. or heavier bullets?

I've been told before that these rifles shoot great with all bullets in the 1:7, but the 1:10s aren't worth a $h!+. Are you restricted to a certain weight of bullet depending on which barrel you have? There would have to be some kind of difference, I would imagine, or they wouldn't offer them with 2 different twists. But what do I know - I've only been running around trying to find a NR CG with 1:7 for over 2 years here. Now I'm starting to think I was steered in the wrong direction...
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The 1:10 barrels are excellent for what they were intended - that is 63gr. RUAG GP-90.
GP-90 is Swiss ball ammo that is pretty close to match-grade in quality. The accuracy requirement from the factory of the 1:10 with GP-90 is 10 rounds into 10x10cm at 300m.
If there are guys out there that have good luck with dirty bird or other bulk FMJ ammo, all the power to them - but that does not compare with proper quality ammo, such as GP-90, especially at distance.
Good luck finding GP-90 - your best bet is hand loading with a bullet like the 60 gr. Hornady v-max to replicate it.
The 1:10s I've had did not shoot the 69gr. SMKs past 300m worth sh!t fwiw, as an indication of the limitations of the 10 twist barrels. ymmv.

If you shoot past 300m, the lighter 55-65 gr. bullets will be affected by wind - if you are comfortable with your dope, then no issues. If you want to use a bullet that bucks the wind, you will need to step into a bullet that is in the 75+ grain range. This is where the 1:7s shine.
 
1:10 - 55gr - Acog - prone.

10 shot group. Buy the Swiss Arms you like, put in the trigger time and don't worry about twist rate so much;)

 
Exactly my point.
While your group is pretty decent laterally, the vertical dispersion is considerable. The lateral dispersion in a half wind would have blown those rounds clear off the fig. 12.
The 10 twists do exceptionally well at stuff out to 300m, and pretty good past that with the right ammo.
 
Not bad at all seeing how the 5,56mm Max effective combat range is 300m. If you want to shoot past 300m get a 7.62mm
 
beltfed said:
Exactly my point.
While your group is pretty decent laterally, the vertical dispersion is considerable. The lateral dispersion in a half wind would have blown those rounds clear off the fig. 12.
The 10 twists do exceptionally well at stuff out to 300m, and pretty good past that with the right ammo.
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Very true, past 300 wind absolutely has a big impact on such a small round. Here are two groups shot at 500 yards in a light 9 O'clock wind originating near the target, I held off left leading edge. The blue is a 10 shot, the yellow a 15 shot. You can see the rounds drifting right especially in the blue group. At 500 yards a 55gr is done, I'll take it out to 600 yards occasionally but I need zero wind to make reliable hits with it at that range.
With 62 grain going 300 plus is much easier in the wind and the 1:10 is adequate for this task.

My point was more to illustrate to the OP that marksmanship and practice is far more important than worrying about twist rates. It does depend on how far out he wants to shoot and in what kind of terrain/conditions (prairies vs mountains). I'd say if he plans to stay inside 400 yards and the trees are not blowing over he's fine with 1:10



Here is a typical 300 yard group from my 1:10 barrel with cheapo AE-55gr 15 shots prone. Not match ammo by any means (low round is me dropping the ball).

 
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I just bought my classic green flat top a few weeks ago (1:7 twist) and I put a Bushnell 2.5-16x42 Elite 6500 on it.
So far after about 200 rounds through it using 55gr American Eagle Tactical I can say that it is capable of 3-4 moa with this cheap ammo. I have a few different types of quality ammo up to 77gr match grade to try in it but haven't got there yet.
All brass gets a ding in the side and a slightly flattened neck but I'm sure I will be able to reload most of it. I use a brass catcher most of the time though since it throws the brass about 15-20 feet to about 2:00.
I get about a 5 inch change in point of impact if I rest it on the bipod then switch to a rest placed at the rear of the hanguard. I have since removed the bipod.
I have only shot at the gongs at 200 and 300 yards and no groups on paper yet but hitting a 10 inch plate at 200 and 300 was fairly easy.
I find the trigger has way too much take up but does break very crisp and clean once you get through the take up. It's a little awkward when switching back and forth between it and my AR's but you get used to it quickly.
The build quality is second to none for a battle rifle. It is beautiful inside. It looks like they took every piece and hand polished it before assembly.
I think one of the reasons it feels muzzle heavy compared to other piston rifles of similar length is that the piston is quite large and is what appears to be stainless. It has a large piston head and thick rod. I can't see any problems ever arising in a system this overbuilt.
Magazines are about twice the cost of a Pmag (retail price not EE price) if you buy the Dominion mags but if you go with Swiss mags they are over $100 each. I just bought a couple of the brown polycarbonate mags from Calgary Shooting Center for $45 each and Canada Ammo sells the black polymer ones for around $40. Both have functioned 100% so far in my rifle during the limited testing I've done so far.

So far I'm very impressed with the rifle although I was hoping for a little better accuracy using the 55gr ammo but I have had a few groups that looked like I was going to get a sub MOA group then the 4th and 5th shots wandered off. I'm sure with some good ammo it will do much better. I didn't buy this thinking it was going to be a sniper rifle so I'm not disappointed but was hoping for a little better. My 12.5 inch AR with 1:8 twist makes tighter groups at 100yds though.

If you can afford one buy one. You won't regret it.
 
cr5 said:
So far I'm very impressed with the rifle although I was hoping for a little better accuracy using the 55gr ammo but I have had a few groups that looked like I was going to get a sub MOA group then the 4th and 5th shots wandered off. I'm sure with some good ammo it will do much better. I didn't buy this thinking it was going to be a sniper rifle so I'm not disappointed but was hoping for a little better. My 12.5 inch AR with 1:8 twist makes tighter groups at 100yds though.

If you can afford one buy one. You won't regret it.
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Keep trying different ammo, different barrels like different stuff. Mine does 1.5"-2" @100 with the AE. Also how are you shooting it? I have found Iget the most accuracy out of these by shooting them off the magazine with nothing touching the forend. I hold the top of the magazine with the support hand.
 
AR15s may shoot better but remember most ARs now a days are DI, free floating barrel and have heavy barrels. For a long stroke piston, the Swiss shoots fantasic! by far the best AK47 based rifle out there :)
 
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