ammo situation worsening.... and worsening..... and worsening ....... May 5, updated

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Case in point, without asking about ammo availability, ask anyone on this forum Where would you rather go? Michael's, Toys R Us, or Walmart - I guarantee you the answer will be Walmart, and the reason will be because they SELL ammo, hunting equipment, and firearms maintenance and support supplies/equipment.

I guarantee the members on this forum that shop at Wal-Mart for ammo do so because the ammo is 2¢ cheaper than elsewhere. They will then spend many times the money they saved driving to a REAL gun store to buy all the rest of their shooting paraphernalia that Wal-Mart does not carry. Unless their sole purpose was hoarding.......:p
 
I guarantee the members on this forum that shop at Wal-Mart for ammo do so because the ammo is 2¢ cheaper than elsewhere. They will then spend many times the money they saved driving to a REAL gun store to buy all the rest of their shooting paraphernalia that Wal-Mart does not carry. Unless their sole purpose was hoarding.......:p
Thank you for bringing this thread up a notch in the entertainment department.
 
I guarantee the members on this forum that shop at Wal-Mart for ammo do so because the ammo is 2¢ cheaper than elsewhere. They will then spend many times the money they saved driving to a REAL gun store to buy all the rest of their shooting paraphernalia that Wal-Mart does not carry. Unless their sole purpose was hoarding.......:p

I don't know about anyone else, but I usually go to the Walmart that's 5 minutes from my house with my wife and kids to get some McDonalds, buy groceries, and along the way, stop by the ammo cabinet to see what they have in stock. Or conversely, when I have a small project around the house, I'll stop by the Canadian Tire 2 minutes from my house, and do the same (check out their stock).

Most of the other paraphernalia I either buy at my LGS, which is also a range I shoot at, I order online, through the EE.

The point though, is that these stores carry ammo because they know they can appeal to a certain demographic to do same store sales when the aren't necessarily looking to buy gun related things.
 
I have never found that walmart has a good selection or good prices on ammo (southern ontario).

then again I usually buy in bulk an not on a brick by brick basis. the only ammo I buy is .22, 7.62x39, and 5.56, the rest is cheaper to reload
 
Are you implying there is some ammunition cartel that colludes in unison to dictate supply levels to set a price point they want? Are they OPEC now?

There are plenty of competitors in the US ammunition manufacturing market, and they have invested heavily in production capacity recently that needs to be paid for, and that does not happen idling production lines.

So no one is going to pay for that investment infrastructure by scaling back production to keep prices high because their competitors will simply increase their production to take advantage of the price.

So I fail to see how you think it will "not be allowed to happen" as when demand drops and the manufacturers are competing with each other for that demand I find it laughable they will band together to "cut that production in a blink of an eye" to idle down all this newly invested manufacturing capacity. They will be fighting each other for customers, and coming up with novel ways to sell their products over each other be it "Zombie Max" ammunition, or "Swamp People" packaging, or selling bulk packs at attractive price points. It is called free market capitalism and healthy competition, and it will benefit the patient consumer who does not buy into a panic.

You believe everyone will keep producing 24/7 trying to increase their share of a market where the demand is shrinking. You have absolutely no concept whatsoever about manufacturing, sales and profit.

Let me dumb it down for you, Think of car sales in a certain segment are slowing at a fast rate. GM, Ford, Chrysler, Toyota, Nissan, VW, Honda and all the others keep their production ramped-up in that segment because they have the infrastructure to build more? You actually believe production will always outpace demand?

China has the capability of producing billions of widgets, demand is for millions however according to you they should continue to produce billions as the have the infastructure to do it.Laugh2

There is a fine line in balancing supply with demand, it is in everything in the world and that is how to maintain profitibility. I am not implying anything, you just don't get it.
 
You believe everyone will keep producing 24/7 trying to increase their share of a market where the demand is shrinking. You have absolutely no concept whatsoever about manufacturing, sales and profit.

Let me dumb it down for you, Think of car sales in a certain segment are slowing at a fast rate. GM, Ford, Chrysler, Toyota, Nissan, VW, Honda and all the others keep their production ramped-up in that segment because they have the infrastructure to build more? You actually believe production will always outpace demand?

China has the capability of producing billions of widgets, demand is for millions however according to you they should continue to produce billions as the have the infastructure to do it.Laugh2

There is a fine line in balancing supply with demand, it is in everything in the world and that is how to maintain profitibility. I am not implying anything, you just don't get it.

While I appreciate your attempt to dumb something down which must come naturally for you as it is your normal language, you are the one who "just don't get it". Sad, because it is a really simple concept and taught in 100 level econ classes at most public institutions.

What you fail to grasp is that without a single source producer, or a cartel of producers acting in unison, there is no way to keep manufacturers from all idling production to keep prices high. So while it may work for a planned economy like China if they are the sole producer, in the real world with competition from others, places like China flood the market in a price war, and their capacity to produce more than the other guys enable them to win by selling in quantity with low margins. It is how they have cornered the market on most mass produced items.

But back away from "widgets", and on to the US ammunition market.

If the price is $25 a brick of .22, and demand is for 1 million units, who is going to dictate how much each manufacturer produces?

No one that is who.

If a manufacturer has the capacity (newly built with millions of invested capital) they will do their best to meet the whole million themselves (or as much as possible), and do so by offering a discount (like $24.99) and creative marketing (like bulk packs with free ammo cans, novelty ammo like "Zombie Max", or celebrity endorsements like the "Swamp People" ammo). They will do this as long as they are running a profit.

Your own example of the car industry is perfect, as when demand slumps and they have excess capacity they offer huge discounts, incentives, and novelty packages to regain or maintain market share. They don't just idle their production lines as long as people are still buying and they turn a profit (or sometimes they will even run at a short term loss as long as they are gaining or maintaining market share and brand loyalty).

I have yet to see a time when the auto industry maintained their prices when demand dropped by simply cutting their supply. I do however remember awesome incentives from cash back, zero down and zero interest financing, to free accessories. Are you really implying I am imagining this, and they simply agreed to all cut their production and the price stayed the same as at the peak when the economy was booming and demand was through the roof?

No one is saying they will be running 24/7 paying OT like they are to meet demand, or investing in new capacity like they are now, but they will be using as much as their normal capacity (recently greatly increased) to keep as much market share as possible.

So just like the auto industry, this will include deals for the consumer in the ammunition market when they compete for the decreasing demand.

That is unless they all collude to agree to keep prices high, and collude to set hard production targets for each to meet with an agreed on market share, just like the OPEC cartel. It is the only way to influence the price. However, as soon as someone does not go with the cartel, or there are sizeable producers outside of it, they loose their ability to influence price, and will increase production to regain market share.

Since there is no ammunition cartel I know of, and many producers, it will be simply increased competition and a fight for market share: lower prices, more choices.

So yes there is a fine line between meeting supply and demand, but it an open competition market with many producers with excess capacity, that means lower prices.

Seriously, it is not rocket science, it is basic economics, and even your own example of the auto industry proves my point, and shoots holes right through yours.
 
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I rarely shop at wallmart, because it erodes my faith in the species, and it's chances for long term survival. Having said that, the few times I am there, I leave depressed about the direction our species is headed, but strangely feeling bouyed about my own status. The masses of overweight, tasteless, stretch pants wearing couch cows, herding their obnoxious, semi-domesticated brood through the racks of chinese objects of desire with a collection of monosyllabic grunts and squeels makes me feel good about myself.

I leave thinking I am fit, intelligent, and good looking- the cream of the crop.
 
While I appreciate your attempt to dumb something down which must come naturally for you as it is your normal language, you are the one who "just don't get it". Sad, because it is a really simple concept and taught in 100 level econ classes at most public institutions.

What you fail to grasp is that without a single source producer, or a cartel of producers acting in unison, there is no way to keep manufacturers from all idling production to keep prices high. So while it may work for a planned economy like China if they are the sole producer, in the real world with competition from others, places like China flood the market in a price war, and their capacity to produce more than the other guys enable them to win by selling in quantity with low margins. It is how they have cornered the market on most mass produced items.

But back away from "widgets", and on to the US ammunition market.

If the price is $25 a brick of .22, and demand is for 1 million units, who is going to dictate how much each manufacturer produces?

No one that is who.

If a manufacturer has the capacity (newly built with millions of invested capital) they will do their best to meet the whole million themselves (or as much as possible), and do so by offering a discount (like $24.99) and creative marketing (like bulk packs with free ammo cans, novelty ammo like "Zombie Max", or celebrity endorsements like the "Swamp People" ammo). They will do this as long as they are running a profit.

Your own example of the car industry is perfect, as when demand slumps and they have excess capacity they offer huge discounts, incentives, and novelty packages to regain or maintain market share. They don't just idle their production lines as long as people are still buying and they turn a profit (or sometimes they will even run at a short term loss as long as they are gaining or maintaining market share and brand loyalty).

I have yet to see a time when the auto industry maintained their prices when demand dropped by simply cutting their supply. I do however remember awesome incentives from cash back, zero down and zero interest financing, to free accessories. Are you really implying I am imagining this, and they simply agreed to all cut their production and the price stayed the same as at the peak when the economy was booming and demand was through the roof?

No one is saying they will be running 24/7 paying OT like they are to meet demand, or investing in new capacity like they are now, but they will be using as much as their normal capacity (recently greatly increased) to keep as much market share as possible.

So just like the auto industry, this will include deals for the consumer in the ammunition market when they compete for the decreasing demand.

That is unless they all collude to agree to keep prices high, and collude to set hard production targets for each to meet with an agreed on market share, just like the OPEC cartel. It is the only way to influence the price. However, as soon as someone does not go with the cartel, or there are sizeable producers outside of it, they loose their ability to influence price, and will increase production to regain market share.

Since there is no ammunition cartel I know of, and many producers, it will be simply increased competition and a fight for market share: lower prices, more choices.

So yes there is a fine line between meeting supply and demand, but it an open competition market with many producers with excess capacity, that means lower prices.

Seriously, it is not rocket science, it is basic economics, and even your own example of the auto industry proves my point, and shoots holes right through yours.

You really don't understand the economics of the market do you? You actually think China produces at low margin? The produce at a margin that allows the wheels to turn, the bellies to be fed and a proft in the end, JUST LIKE NORTH AMERICA. When it comes to China and profit/margins you haven't a clue. I didn't realize that your "fedeal job" was in sourcing from China.. with your know it all attitude you wouldn't last a day in the China market.

NOTHING is intentionally overproduced, and ammo suppliers will scale back the moment they see the market start to slump. Obviously you have never heard of layoffs..right? Layoffs occur when production is reduced to where companies can't support the staff they currently have.

There is no free lunch, no matter what you think or say and if you think ammo manufacturers don't talk to each other you are beyond hope.

We all know there is no collusion in anything and that is why gasoline prices are different at every station in any local. Everyone knows that if there was a Ammo Cartel of course you would know about it...Laugh2

Possibly you never knew that many retailers order by BRAND and if your BRAND isn't what is ordered then producing for non-existent orders is pretty stupid...right. If no one wants brand X but order brand Y then it won't take long for brand X to lower it production drastically. At present people will buy anything but that will change when the stupidity stops.

I'll say it again MATH IS NOT YOUR STRONG SUBJECT.
 
I rarely shop at wallmart, because it erodes my faith in the species, and it's chances for long term survival. Having said that, the few times I am there, I leave depressed about the direction our species is headed, but strangely feeling bouyed about my own status. The masses of overweight, tasteless, stretch pants wearing couch cows, herding their obnoxious, semi-domesticated brood through the racks of chinese objects of desire with a collection of monosyllabic grunts and squeels makes me feel good about myself.

I leave thinking I am fit, intelligent, and good looking- the cream of the crop.


Have we met at Walmart before?:p

You don't have to reply if you are too busy in front of the mirror.......
 
You really don't understand the economics of the market do you? You actually think China produces at low margin? The produce at a margin that allows the wheels to turn, the bellies to be fed and a proft in the end, JUST LIKE NORTH AMERICA. When it comes to China and profit/margins you haven't a clue. I didn't realize that your "fedeal job" was in sourcing from China.. with your know it all attitude you wouldn't last a day in the China market.

NOTHING is intentionally overproduced, and ammo suppliers will scale back the moment they see the market start to slump. Obviously you have never heard of layoffs..right? Layoffs occur when production is reduced to where companies can't support the staff they currently have.

There is no free lunch, no matter what you think or say and if you think ammo manufacturers don't talk to each other you are beyond hope.

We all know there is no collusion in anything and that is why gasoline prices are different at every station in any local. Everyone knows that if there was a Ammo Cartel of course you would know about it...Laugh2

Possibly you never knew that many retailers order by BRAND and if your BRAND isn't what is ordered then producing for non-existent orders is pretty stupid...right. If no one wants brand X but order brand Y then it won't take long for brand X to lower it production drastically. At present people will buy anything but that will change when the stupidity stops.

I'll say it again MATH IS NOT YOUR STRONG SUBJECT.

If you believe market demand will drop to where they make layoffs instead of cutting the price to compete you must think the price of ammunition is already at the cost of production and any lower price point will be at a loss.

Since only a brain damaged chicken thinks this, the obvious market choice for producers is to cut their prices to still sell their substantial production capacity until they are no longer making a profit.

If one cuts production, and the others don't, they will loose out on lost sales and profit. In absence of a monopoly, a cartel, or planned production targets, producers will keep producing and lower prices as long as there is a market (and there still will be, even if slightly smaller than today).

It happens in your example of the car industry (price cuts, incentives, and freebies), and in China (which is done in a planned economy by artificially keep their exchange rate low).

Nobody has ever talked about overproducing, we are talking about meeting even a decreased demand within your current production capacity in competition with other manufacturers, which in this case results in lower prices.

Even that brain damaged chicken mentioned above can see this. Absent a monopoly, cartel, or planned economy, when demand drops, so does the price. This will happen as long as producers have excess capacity and are still turning a profit.

So unless you contend the US ammunition market is a monopoly, controlled by a cartel, or is under supply management, and that the price is already as low as it can go to turn a profit, if there is a decrease in demand, there will be a drop in price. It takes a special kind of chicken to argue otherwise.

I sometimes wonder if you are really as dumb as you let on, or if you are just so stubborn and despise me so much you feel compelled to take any stance that is opposite of mine, even if you are wrong and make yourself look like a fool to everyone here.

But please carry on, it is good entertainment for everyone here.
 
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I rarely shop at wallmart, because it erodes my faith in the species, and it's chances for long term survival. Having said that, the few times I am there, I leave depressed about the direction our species is headed, but strangely feeling bouyed about my own status. The masses of overweight, tasteless, stretch pants wearing couch cows, herding their obnoxious, semi-domesticated brood through the racks of chinese objects of desire with a collection of monosyllabic grunts and squeels makes me feel good about myself.

I leave thinking I am fit, intelligent, and good looking- the cream of the crop.

Laugh2Laugh2Laugh2 FTW!!!!! Man .... I'm going to borrow that for signature line material if it's ok !!! Freekin hilarious!!! :cheers::cheers:
 
I rarely shop at wallmart, because it erodes my faith in the species, and it's chances for long term survival. Having said that, the few times I am there, I leave depressed about the direction our species is headed, but strangely feeling bouyed about my own status. The masses of overweight, tasteless, stretch pants wearing couch cows, herding their obnoxious, semi-domesticated brood through the racks of chinese objects of desire with a collection of monosyllabic grunts and squeels makes me feel good about myself.

I leave thinking I am fit, intelligent, and good looking- the cream of the crop.

You can cure that by following up with a stroll through Abercrombie & Fitch ;)
 
Have we met at Walmart before?:p

You don't have to reply if you are too busy in front of the mirror.......

Sh1t, I spend so little time in the mirror, I've gone all day with grease on my face. Frickin guys never say a word, do they?

Laugh2Laugh2Laugh2 FTW!!!!! Man .... I'm going to borrow that for signature line material if it's ok !!! Freekin hilarious!!! :cheers::cheers:

Feel free. :)

You can cure that by following up with a stroll through Abercrombie & Fitch ;)

I'll have to take your word for it. -Wait I just googled Abercrombie & Fitch images, and I feel like I stumbled on to a ### #### site. Not that that's ever happened before... hey, the description said threesome, it wasn't specific, and the lighting was poor. I sold that computer afterwards.


The real irony, is that a little philipino guy had to help me to the counter when I cleaned out the local wallmart, as I took all they had. Don't judge me, I tried canammo, International shooting sports, Lever arms , Canadian tire, and wholesale sports first, and they only had lead stuff, no copper clad...
 
If you believe market demand will drop to where they make layoffs instead of cutting the price to compete you must think the price of ammunition is already at the cost of production and any lower price point will be at a loss.

Since only a brain damaged chicken thinks this, the obvious market choice for producers is to cut their prices to still sell their substantial production capacity until they are no longer making a profit.

If one cuts production, and the others don't, they will loose out on lost sales and profit. In absence of a monopoly, a cartel, or planned production targets, producers will keep producing and lower prices as long as there is a market (and there still will be, even if slightly smaller than today).

It happens in your example of the car industry (price cuts, incentives, and freebies), and in China (which is done in a planned economy by artificially keep their exchange rate low).

Nobody has ever talked about overproducing, we are talking about meeting even a decreased demand within your current production capacity in competition with other manufacturers, which in this case results in lower prices.

Even that brain damaged chicken mentioned above can see this. Absent a monopoly, cartel, or planned economy, when demand drops, so does the price. This will happen as long as producers have excess capacity and are still turning a profit.

So unless you contend the US ammunition market is a monopoly, controlled by a cartel, or is under supply management, and that the price is already as low as it can go to turn a profit, if there is a decrease in demand, there will be a drop in price. It takes a special kind of chicken to argue otherwise.

I sometimes wonder if you are really as dumb as you let on, or if you are just so stubborn and despise me so much you feel compelled to take any stance that is opposite of mine, even if you are wrong and make yourself look like a fool to everyone here.

But please carry on, it is good entertainment for everyone here.

Hard to believe you're wrong...right?

Possibly you never knew that the production was ramped up to 24/7 to fill demand and will go back to "normal" when demand subsides there will be cuts in staff.

I have no idea where you get some of the ideas you write, guess if become a problem if you can't just cut and paste.

There will be a demand for increased profit which will come from increased margin after ths stupdity ends as not a single company will allow their net profit to decrease if they can do something about it. Prices will not come down but you keep on your crusade they will and time will show who is wrong, oh it will be YOU.

You don't understand the economics of business as being a cop you don't have a job that "creates" anything, you get paid no matter what even if you don't perform your duty.

Your post about China and low margins is laughable, I forwarded it to some business friends and they will pee themselves over that. Proves you don't understand the economics of business and probaby never will. I have been to China, there are more filthy rich in that country than anywhere else in the world and we all know they made their millions by producing goods at low margin.f:P:

The only thing that is cheaper in China is labor, they pay world price for everything else and that is their big advantage. Wages are up in China to where more and more companies are looking at places like Vietnam for production. They are tough business people to deal with and have no intention to produce for little return on investment, just like every other company in the world.

Again I would love to see you take your "I know everything" attitude to China to do business, they would literally throw you out of their office. Live in your bubble, you honestly don't understand business.

EVERY supplier will cut production when demand drops, I know this is hard for you to grasp but try. NO supplier will be dumb enough to think if they produce 24/7 after the bubble bursts they will get all the business.

A cut in production does not mean lower prices, I know thay may be difficult to accept but it is a fact. It is obvious you have never had employment other than being a civil servant where layoffs are rare and payday always happens.

There are no freebies in business, someone paid for them.

Here is one you will probably have difficulty wrapping your brain around, you can actually produce less and make more net profit.
 
critter, why the causticity? knock it off. If you have facts to share about the ammo shortage or its absence, then share them, otherwise exert your impotence elsewhere.
 
Once the US has its ammo order filled, production will continue just to cover the contractually obligated number of rounds for warranty replacement. Once that has been achieved, production will return to one shift, Monday to Friday. Jobs will be lost because ammo factories don't need to run 24/7 anymore.

Prices for ammo will go up because of an increased demand for all the people who rushed out to buy rifles and handguns in anticipation of a ban. More demand for less supply in a capitalist society breeds profiteering. Look at the prices and availability for AR magazines and tell me this will not happen with ammo. Every aspect of the supply chain will increase its costs, and we the consumer will pay.

This reminds me of the fire in a resin factory in China twenty years ago, destroying the plant. The resin they made was specific for computer RAM memory, and they were one of three companies in the world who made the resin. Overnight prices for RAM went from $50 meg, doubling to $100. It stayed at the artificially inflated price for at least six months. In that time three resin factories were built, and once they were in production, the price on RAM only dropped 10%.

Artificially created demand is a godsend for any manufacturer and with the heated debates between the pro vs anti crowd, we are going to pay dearly for our sport. Wait for the introduction of ammo storage limitations by some form of government agency. Higher prices with an increased demand equals more tax revenue.
 
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I dunno, I'd like to have a few pounds more of unique on hand but I'm OK. I have what I need until next year anyway. Luckily I stocked up over the last 2 years (not expecting a drought) it just happened that way. I feel sorry for the guys that are just getting into hand loading now, though.

Powders are iffy and primers? Forget it. I know one thing for sure, I'm glad I have what I need.
 
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