ejection pattern handloads vs factory

Oh, and as far as cast goes. I myself haven't had that much luck with them. Well, I have, I got some great shooting accurate loads using cast bullets, but I was on the edge of having them lead on me, and some loads did indeed that.

If you can cast your own, awesome, otherwise, if you're buying cast, I wouldn't bother. Locally for me, I can get Cam-Pro bullets, and I can get DRG cast bullets.
The price difference between the two for me is negligible when I reach the bottom line. So it's not worth the whole dollar I'll save per batch when it means the Cam-Pro will clean up much faster.

If I was shooting 45 on the other hand, I would not bother with CMJ as cast is much cheaper in that bullet size and 45 it much slower and less likely to lead.
 
Travel240z said:
Hi Avenida,

Well, today was not a good Chrony day. High winds and continuously changing cloud cover lead to useless readings.

Anyway, I ran into the same issues that you did. 4gr WSF would not function. 4.5grns worked very well for precision (1.5" at 10 yards) and functioned well but brass ejection was 2' as compared to 10' with factory. At least mine is not hitting me in the head!

Hopefully I can get out again this weekend and the weather will be more conducive to the Chrony.
Click to expand...

Keep me posted, I am in the process of getting a new scale since mine is acting finicky. Once I get this part solved, I will start reloading again this week and hopefully try the crono by Wednesday.
 
Conte said:
Oh, and as far as cast goes. I myself haven't had that much luck with them. Well, I have, I got some great shooting accurate loads using cast bullets, but I was on the edge of having them lead on me, and some loads did indeed that.

If you can cast your own, awesome, otherwise, if you're buying cast, I wouldn't bother. Locally for me, I can get Cam-Pro bullets, and I can get DRG cast bullets.
The price difference between the two for me is negligible when I reach the bottom line. So it's not worth the whole dollar I'll save per batch when it means the Cam-Pro will clean up much faster.

If I was shooting 45 on the other hand, I would not bother with CMJ as cast is much cheaper in that bullet size and 45 it much slower and less likely to lead.
Click to expand...

Thanks for sharing your experience with the CAMPROs and you are right about the WSF, the thing is that full loads are very snappy compared to factory and accuracy suffers big time. I can't get the same groups I get with factory loading 5 grains of WSF. I will do some more testing this week, I need to get this combo rolling, I am on a mission.
lol

Cheers
 
tjhaile said:
-The published data may be based on what the developers found gave best accuracy and/or least leading.
-Some data is based on soft swaged bullets (e.g. hornady or Speer) rather than hard cast.
-Sometimes, it takes less powder to get the desired velocity.
Click to expand...

Um, Wrong.
Lead load data shows a lower powder charge due to a higher friction between the bullet and the bore. Higher friction increases pressure and therefore requires less powder.

Now, back to the OP's issue.
A chrono is mandatory when working up a load, I'm glad you found one.
When working up a load generally you want it to land approximately 6' from you.
If its dribbling on your head your power factor is too low or the gun is sprung to heavy.
If it's ejecting into the next time zone either your power factor is through the roof or the gun is sprung to light.
My guess is you need to work on the load, without reading everything it sounds like its too light, I never researched your charge weight or powder selection but it sounds like changes are in order.
Have fun, it's worth it.
 
RUPZUK said:
Um, Wrong.
Lead load data shows a lower powder charge due to a higher friction between the bullet and the bore. Higher friction increases pressure and therefore requires less powder.

Now, back to the OP's issue.
A chrono is mandatory when working up a load, I'm glad you found one.
When working up a load generally you want it to land approximately 6' from you.
If its dribbling on your head your power factor is too low or the gun is sprung to heavy.
If it's ejecting into the next time zone either your power factor is through the roof or the gun is sprung to light.
My guess is you need to work on the load, without reading everything it sounds like its too light, I never researched your charge weight or powder selection but it sounds like changes are in order.
Have fun, it's worth it.
Click to expand...

Um, wrong. A jacketed bullet requires more force to drive it down the barrel because it is harder to deform. Try loading a muzzleloader with a full-calibre (not in a sabot) jacketed bullet and you will understand.
 
I'm not going to argue the friction vs pressure aspect of cast bullets, as I don't have any first hand data to that effect, but the general reason cast bullets get loaded lighter is because they can't be pushed as hot. The hot charge, be it friction or burn temperature will start to melt the lead, compromising the bullets structure and bore seal, and cause it to smear itself on the bore. You CAN run them as hot as jacketed safely, that data I do have, but you're not going to like the results, especially when it comes time to clean the gun.

As an example, a Cast Gas check bullet is usually rated for up to 2000fps, don't quote me on that, I just know I'm the right neighborhood, since most pistol loads to not run that hot, a Cast GC bullet CAN often be pushed up to jacketed velocities with jacketed load data with no ill effect on pressures.

Gas checks are usually used in rifles, as such they are rarer in pistol bullets, and most one I've seen have been home made my local casters for magnum pistol applications. I myself was luck enough to score a sweet deal on a bucket full of Gas Check 44 mag bullets, and have loaded them up to full power magnum powder charges out my Marlin 1894 carbine with no ill effects. I will not that I don't push them quite as hot as jacketed or CMJ, but pretty close.
Hottest load I chony'ed was 1535fps 10feet from the muzzle, and I've loaded them hotter then that even. Whereas my standard FMJ/CMJ load was 1544fps, and hot factory loads out that rifle clocked in at ~1700. These Gas Check loads showed no overpressure signs nor signs of leading.
 
Avenida said:
Thanks for sharing your experience with the CAMPROs and you are right about the WSF, the thing is that full loads are very snappy compared to factory and accuracy suffers big time. I can't get the same groups I get with factory loading 5 grains of WSF. I will do some more testing this week, I need to get this combo rolling, I am on a mission.
lol

Cheers
Click to expand...

Yeah, that's why you need a faster powder, so you can get the snap you need to reliably cycle the gun with a lighter load that gives you the results you need.
But also, sometimes that more snap doesn't effect the guns accuracy as much as it effects you ability to accurately control it, something to think about.

Meanwhile, RUPZUK touched on an interesting point to consider. If you can't find a reliable snappy load that works for you, and really want to run a light load, you can consider getting a lighter recoil spring for your gun. That way you can tune the gun to your loads instead of tuning your loads to your gun. As it is right now, you gun is designed to cycle standard factory loads. Just bare in mind, If you lighten the spring you may not be able to shoot factory safely anymore.

If my estimations in quick load are correct, your 4.3g load is generating about 18000psi. Knowing my loads, and the MP9, you need over 20k to get the ejection you want. 5.0g gets you around 25k which adds up as your ejection gets where you want it to be. I don't have WSF in my quickload, so I had to extrapolate by using a powder close to it in burn rate so these numbers could be quite off. Again, just something to think about.
 
have you had a peek at the cases after they eject? i'm not trying to be condescending or rude, the only reason i'm asking is because it was a problem my cousin was having with winchester brass, and i've had with Remington brass. all were 5.2gn of WSF with 115gn FMJ, federal primer. with the Remington stuff i was having some serious issues with it ejecting properly (dropping on my hands or inches from firing point) and my cousin was having the bases gouged and FTE's with the Winchester stuff. I don't have any experience with the Blazzer stuff, but maybe try some federal cases just for a change up (they're what i've had the best luck with).
 
rayisametalkid said:
have you had a peek at the cases after they eject? i'm not trying to be condescending or rude, the only reason i'm asking is because it was a problem my cousin was having with winchester brass, and i've had with Remington brass. all were 5.2gn of WSF with 115gn FMJ, federal primer. with the Remington stuff i was having some serious issues with it ejecting properly (dropping on my hands or inches from firing point) and my cousin was having the bases gouged and FTE's with the Winchester stuff. I don't have any experience with the Blazzer stuff, but maybe try some federal cases just for a change up (they're what i've had the best luck with).
Click to expand...

Nah, his problems aren't with the brass, but you did remind me of something.
You can kind of read the primers to find out about your MP9 timing, however, you can't really tell anything until your loads get hotter.
Sometimes, you'll see a "smear" mark on the primer. It's caused my the extraction starting before the firing pin has fully retracted.
The pin is still stuck in the back of the primer while the barrel starts to tilt, so instead of a solid pin indent, it shows a smear. You'd know it to see it.

But again, your situation is loads that are too light, and this is a phenomenon that occurs with loads that are too hot. Not hot as in too much pressure, but hot as in to early or timing. My buddie was having this happen to him when he was shooting hot, heavy bullet reloads in his MP9, whereas my reloads did not do this.
 
Thank you Conte, this is awesome stuff man.
Yes, and let me go in depth here. I noticed the smear with Factory ammo, it is not there with loads below 4.5 and just over 4.9 start to show a liiiiitle.
This is very interesting, too bad I still have like 3 pounds of WSF!

I am interested in shooting factory ammo so changing the spring is not an option for me. I will be competing in IDPA and I will use factory for those matches, so... Anyway, the idea of changing the springs had crossed my mind, but I am not there yet.

If I can't get the load to work properly wiht this bullet my next step is trying FMJ and WSF and see if there is a difference in felt recoil.

Anyway, this turned out to be a very very helpful thread, and I encourage everybody else using plated bullets to post your chrono results.





Conte said:
Nah, his problems aren't with the brass, but you did remind me of something.
You can kind of read the primers to find out about your MP9 timing, however, you can't really tell anything until your loads get hotter.
Sometimes, you'll see a "smear" mark on the primer. It's caused my the extraction starting before the firing pin has fully retracted.
The pin is still stuck in the back of the primer while the barrel starts to tilt, so instead of a solid pin indent, it shows a smear. You'd know it to see it.

But again, your situation is loads that are too light, and this is a phenomenon that occurs with loads that are too hot. Not hot as in too much pressure, but hot as in to early or timing. My buddie was having this happen to him when he was shooting hot, heavy bullet reloads in his MP9, whereas my reloads did not do this.
Click to expand...
 
Here is what I got today.
WSF, CCI primers, plated 124grn bullets

4.4 grns = 900fps
4.7 grns = 960fps
4.8 grns = 980fps
4.9 grns = 1010fps
5.0 grns = 1025fps
5.1 grns = 1065fps
5.2 grns = 1090fps

Grouping at 4.4 gave me 2.25" at 16 yards. 4.8 was 4" at 16 yards. 5.1 would be my next guess for a good group as it was hitting where I was aiming but I had only loaded a couple for the velocity test.

Gives a general idea to what is going on. Remember to use your own data for your own loads.
 
Avenida said:
If I can't get the load to work properly wiht this bullet my next step is trying FMJ and WSF and see if there is a difference in felt recoil.
Click to expand...

If you can't get it to work properly with the CMJ, you're unlikely to get any different results with FMJ.
Unless the bullet weight is different, you won't feel any change in recoil between the two with the same powder charge.

I was running my MP9 today. Worked up a load using Bullzeye. Been shooting 4.0g the last while testing these bullets, but I up'ed it to 4.3g and damn, it shot well. Using the 124g Cam-Pro, 1.125" oal. WSP Primers.
 
Conte said:
I'm not going to argue the friction vs pressure aspect of cast bullets, as I don't have any first hand data to that effect, but the general reason cast bullets get loaded lighter is because they can't be pushed as hot. The hot charge, be it friction or burn temperature will start to melt the lead, compromising the bullets structure and bore seal, and cause it to smear itself on the bore. You CAN run them as hot as jacketed safely, that data I do have, but you're not going to like the results, especially when it comes time to clean the gun.

As an example, a Cast Gas check bullet is usually rated for up to 2000fps, don't quote me on that, I just know I'm the right neighborhood, since most pistol loads to not run that hot, a Cast GC bullet CAN often be pushed up to jacketed velocities with jacketed load data with no ill effect on pressures.

Gas checks are usually used in rifles, as such they are rarer in pistol bullets, and most one I've seen have been home made my local casters for magnum pistol applications. I myself was luck enough to score a sweet deal on a bucket full of Gas Check 44 mag bullets, and have loaded them up to full power magnum powder charges out my Marlin 1894 carbine with no ill effects. I will not that I don't push them quite as hot as jacketed or CMJ, but pretty close.
Hottest load I chony'ed was 1535fps 10feet from the muzzle, and I've loaded them hotter then that even. Whereas my standard FMJ/CMJ load was 1544fps, and hot factory loads out that rifle clocked in at ~1700. These Gas Check loads showed no overpressure signs nor signs of leading.
Click to expand...

Severe leading with cast bullets is usually caused by gas cutting due to the bullet being undersized. The fact that commercial bullets are usually bevel-based exacerbates this. Inadequate lube is the next most likely culprit. As a rule, handgun muzzle velocities are mostly well within the limitations of plain-based hard cast bullets.
 
"...I talk like this..." and spit out useless info that isn't true. 10 posts above me all say to increase powder and fixed the problem themselves, but I make this up.
"...lame..." 16000 useless posts.
 
Thanks Conte!
Good to know that bullzeye works good. I will have that one in mind. Have you tried 231, titegroup? those seem to be popular ones and I don't want to get burnt again with the wrong powder.


Conte said:
If you can't get it to work properly with the CMJ, you're unlikely to get any different results with FMJ.
Unless the bullet weight is different, you won't feel any change in recoil between the two with the same powder charge.

I was running my MP9 today. Worked up a load using Bullzeye. Been shooting 4.0g the last while testing these bullets, but I up'ed it to 4.3g and damn, it shot well. Using the 124g Cam-Pro, 1.125" oal. WSP Primers.
Click to expand...
 
Avenida said:
Thanks Conte!
Good to know that bullzeye works good. I will have that one in mind. Have you tried 231, titegroup? those seem to be popular ones and I don't want to get burnt again with the wrong powder.
Click to expand...

To be honest, the only powders I've used in 9mm so far are Bullzeye and Power Pistol.

When you're only dropping like 4g a round, a pound lasts forever, so I haven't been able to experiment with a lot of powders yet.

I've been loading for years, 9mm is the most recent caliber I've loaded for. Started last summer, and seriously have not even finished my 2nd pound of powder.
Mind you, last summer is also when I got my first pistol, and naturally, I sucked with it, so I did not shoot it that much. I've since gotten considerably better with it so I'm shooting pistol a lot more.

Power Pistol was a pretty good powder. I recall loading 6g behind a 115g CMJ. Not sure if it shot well, cause I sucked, but it burned clean. Cleaner then Bullzeye.
It's a bit slower too, but as slow as WSF. A good powder for making full power factory style rounds.

I got Bullzeye when I finished my batch of CMJ's and wanted to try cast. Power Pistol would not have been good for cast. Either would of pushed them too hot or I would of had to down load too much making an inefficient burning load.

Bullzeye is just a touch dirtier then I'd like it to be, but not bad. It's known to be a good all around pistol powder for many calibers.
 
good stuff!
Thanks man.
I have my loads ready to go, I will start from 4.7 up to 5.1 and see what I get.
To my surprise, my old scale was measuring more than the actual powder in the pan, so I got a new one now. This one is right on the money, so I will have to start over since my previous readings were not accurate at all. The older scale was off around 0.4, I tried my powder measure last night, and according to my old scale it weighted 5 grs, the new scale 4.6. Both scales are the same make, Lyman 1000, one is probably more than 5 years old (or ten) the other is brand new.
Something to have in mind if you got you reloading equipment from the EE section like I did. My 2 cents: get a new scale. You never know what happened to an old scale along the way, I learnt my lesson, luckily to me, it was measuring in my favor and I didn't blow up, but could have been the other way around.
Long story short, the5 gr charge tried last week, weren't really five, were 4.6...
I am excited about testing the charges tomorrow before my idpa practice.
 
Sweet.

You want to know about a crappy scale, those lee balance scales that come with their press kits.

Zero, measure, zero, double check, zero, triple check, zero. PITA. Bought a Hornady digital and it does the job.
 
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