Sorting Cases

thanks for your feed back 358Rooster, I cannot control neck tension on every case, and perhaps I should have worded my 2 cents differently, what I can do is sort the cases with the same neck tensions and shoot them as a group, I also use an expander mandrel on my cases to help get the necks sized where I like them, but as you said case hardening comes into play sooner or later ,that's where the junk pile or garbage can comes in, as far as chamfering it is easy to over do, I have not been able to measure on the target the just right amount versa the to much, I can only make one 360 degree turn with the tool and hope the pressure is close to the same, my buddy has that fancy Wilson tool you eluded to, maybe I need one of those, case length is fairly easy to do and control once you have the set up for every caliber you shoot, which I do, one thing I did not mention is consistent primer pocket depth and uniformity, also pretty straight forward once you have the right set up
let me finish by saying if your max shooting distance in the 300 yrd range all this will make a difference but may not matter, if you want to play on the 1000 plus yrd range then I think you may want to consider this
358Rooster said:
Sorry I haven't been back here for a while fellas. I feel a bit like that little yappy dog behind the fence...:p At any rate, good exchange here! I do have a few more bits to throw on the fire:evil:

Comment on physics; objects of exact same weights, lengths, and external dimensions should have nearly the same chamber volume, despite slight differences in distribution and density of the material - agreed. Mostly. If all the afforementioned are strictly controlled but the distribution of the material is slightly different from case to case, where does that material of the same density go? If one case (of several of the same weight) has a thinner wall than any of the others in this lot, either: a) the material in the "thinner" case has a higher density or molecular weight, or b) material of the same density has moved somewhere and as said before, with all external dimensions being the exact same, the only place for it to go is into the chamber, thus decreasing the chamber volume slightly. Ha! Dispute that! Speaking of neurotic...;) Anyway, yes, the weight of a fireformed case must directly affect the volume of the chamber within that case but I don't think it's exactly as cut and dried as most of us would like to believe. Now, the QUANTIFIABLE difference all this makes is beyond me. For the shooting I do, cases of the same lot and strict preparation practises are as far as I go.

One more thing BadAsMo: is your water tap water or demineralized?Laugh2

Mr Shave; how do you control neck tension 100%? I've long pondered this as, each case will react slightly differently after being exposed to heat and pressure cycles. I've noticed some cases of the same lot and same number of firing cycles will exhibit different perceived properties (ductility). Short of hardness testing, I can't see any way to control this 100%. Sure, you can anneal but unless you have a thermocouple attached to each case, your flame is the exact same temperature for each case treatment, and your cool down period is tightly controlled, you will get different ductility results. I realize you probably mean 100% - within reasonable means:) I think it's a good thing I don't have time and money to do experiments:rolleyes: Anyone know of any government grants a guy could get for something like this?

The other thing is, even if you control your case length to within .001, if you're using a hand-operated chamfer tool, it will blow your efforts to hell. One important part of neck tension is contact area. If you trim all your brass to within .001 but hit it with the chamfer tool, you could have a chamfer depth of a couple thou, or 10 or 20 thou. Each one will be different and none of them are likely to be cut perpendicular to the axis of the case! The only way past this (that I know of) would be something like the Wilson trimmer setup with their chamfer tool that has a positive stop, making the depth of each chamfer the same. And in that case, you could have large variances in case length but if the bottom of the chamfer (where contact with the bullet begins) is in the exact same location from your datum point, you would have the best result possible. Now what about the location of the contact point at the neck / shoulder junction?cou:

Okay, I'm done for now. I gotta go have a nap to recover. Rooster gots da brain pain!

Rooster
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This is how my operation goes for the rifles I care to be particularly fussy about:
  1. open box of Lapua brass (ooooo, aaaaaaaah!)
  2. Once the novelty has worn off a little, neck size each case with my bushing die with expander button installed
  3. chamfer in and out with hand tools (after I get bored measuring about 20 raw case lengths)
  4. whine about my fingers and carry on with pocket uniforming (thank goodness stuff like Lapua doesn't need nearly as much as domestics (cuz I outright cry when I do those)
  5. Whine a little more and move on to priming, charging, seating, oggling
  6. repeat after each firing as above, unless I need to bump shoulders - oh, and occasionally trim if necessary (no, I don't chamfer if I don't trim)
You see, all the crap that I've been spouting is just stuff that goes on in my head (can you imagine what else happens in there?). I don't actually put into practise a lot of the stuff that I ponder (see sig line) but I do like to theorize and have experimented to some degree but that is largely behind me, as free time and access to machine tools is long gone. Lots of times when I feel a difference in neck tension while seating a bullet, I may move that round into the practice / warmup pile and contemplate reasons why it felt different but that often leaks out after a while (once again, see signature line). Maybe if I ever got into competition, I'd be more "neurotic". How do you determine appropriate neck tension, Mr Shave? Is there any other practical way than what I've described here? For me, as long as I've brushed and cleaned and lubed well and the cases haven't exhibited irregular behaviour while going through the die, it's about all I care to do right now. It's been a very long time since I annealed any brass but I may consider it again sometime now that I've stepped into a higher level and volume of shooting again lately.

Rooster
 
I see our operations in reloading are similar,
1. open box of Lapua or commercial brass, load and shoot
2. fireform
3. trim to shortest length in batch
4. neck turn to 10 thou, only because its a nice round number and different batches of Lapua runs 12-13.5thou and commercial well it is commercial
5. ream primer pockets to uniformity, Lapua is really consistent, but I like to run hot loads and commercial all over the place but its the easiest wayI know to clean primer pockets
6. full length resize or bump shoulder
7. chamfer in and out, I do this every time because its habit
8. weigh charge load, I like to look at digital read outs versa I think it looks the same
9. seat bullet with micrometer die, once again I like to know when 1 thou is 1 thou
10. check and confirm seating depth with comparator gauge

as you can see we do pretty much the same things when it comes to reloading, and it seems to work well for both of us, oh and as far as appropriate neck tension that depends on the particular gun, I have found there is no one size fix all

the (more) tension you feel in seating the bullet is as you assumed is related to brass hardening

at the end of the day so long as we are happy with the results of or efforts, that's all that is required

regards, Grant










4.
358Rooster said:
This is how my operation goes for the rifles I care to be particularly fussy about:
  1. open box of Lapua brass (ooooo, aaaaaaaah!)
  2. Once the novelty has worn off a little, neck size each case with my bushing die with expander button installed
  3. chamfer in and out with hand tools (after I get bored measuring about 20 raw case lengths)
  4. whine about my fingers and carry on with pocket uniforming (thank goodness stuff like Lapua doesn't need nearly as much as domestics (cuz I outright cry when I do those)
  5. Whine a little more and move on to priming, charging, seating, oggling
  6. repeat after each firing as above, unless I need to bump shoulders - oh, and occasionally trim if necessary (no, I don't chamfer if I don't trim)
You see, all the crap that I've been spouting is just stuff that goes on in my head (can you imagine what else happens in there?). I don't actually put into practise a lot of the stuff that I ponder (see sig line) but I do like to theorize and have experimented to some degree but that is largely behind me, as free time and access to machine tools is long gone. Lots of times when I feel a difference in neck tension while seating a bullet, I may move that round into the practice / warmup pile and contemplate reasons why it felt different but that often leaks out after a while (once again, see signature line). Maybe if I ever got into competition, I'd be more "neurotic". How do you determine appropriate neck tension, Mr Shave? Is there any other practical way than what I've described here? For me, as long as I've brushed and cleaned and lubed well and the cases haven't exhibited irregular behaviour while going through the die, it's about all I care to do right now. It's been a very long time since I annealed any brass but I may consider it again sometime now that I've stepped into a higher level and volume of shooting again lately.

Rooster
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Grant Shave said:
4. neck turn to 10 thou, only because its a nice round number and different batches of Lapua runs 12-13.5thou and commercial well it is commercial
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0.010" is quite thin... What is the diameter of your necks on a loaded round compared to a fired case?
 
Grant Shave said:
2 thou on custom chambers, as a quote from Speedy Gonzalas thin wins, but so far not in my world

Grant
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I don't understand Grant... What I'm asking is what is the diameter of the neck on your fired round as compared to the diameter of the neck on the loaded round?

Neck turning can be both good and bad depending on the neck clearance in the chamber. On one hand neck turning makes it easier to control neck tension - particularly when using a Redding neck sizer or equivalent - but if the chamber is SAMMI - then it means the necks on fired cases need to be reduced several thousanths (often .015" or more) to hold a bullet - more than if the neck had not been turned. This induces runnout by virtue of the amount of resizing and heavily work hardens brass.

Heavy neck resizing also forms a taper to the neck with the mouth the smallest point and this plays havoc with perceived neck tension. A diligent hand loader who is aware of this can resize the neck twice to correct for it. First rough neck resize bushing would be .002" larger than the final size. The second finish pass neck resize removes the taper.

When a barrel is chambered with the appropriate custom reamer - then it's all good because resizing is minimal which minimizes work hardening of the brass and because the diameter is being reduced only a couple thou - there is less opportunity for the introduction of runout and concentricity issues.
 
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Grant Shave said:
#2 neck tension 100% exactly the same on every case, or your screwed from the start

I neither weigh or volume test my brass, if I miss a shot I do what everyone else does and blame the "WIND"
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Proper annealing and case prep can help keep the brass as consistent as humanly possible.

There is now a seater with a force gauge. As you seat the bullet, it indicates how much force is needed. By keeping that number the same or in a small region, the assumption is that neck tension is also the same.

Inference: if the neck has the same tension, the amount of force needed to push the bullet in should be the same.

Never tried it so can't say. BUT neck tension is so very important for consistent LR accuracy.

Far more so, then a raft of things.

Jerry
 
you are correct, using my 22 BR as example and using Lapua brass, my throat is a .243, my loaded round is .241 and my fired brass seems to end up .242 ,
my 6ppc (not my build ) is a .268 throat, loaded at .262 and fired is .267,
yes I'm working the brass but it also seems to shoot well, brass is cheap compared to the bullet and powder I cannot recover and use over again
now the beauty about custom guns is you can get what you feel is the best for you, only comes at the cost of a reamer

I gave up playing with factory guns and have only one factory hunting rifle and well it shoots really well with Winchester, Federal or Norma brass so what I do may not be practical for those that do


BadAsMo said:
I don't understand Grant... What I'm asking is what is the diameter of the neck on your fired round as compared to the diameter of the neck on the loaded round?

Neck turning can be both good and bad depending on the neck clearance in the chamber. On one hand neck turning makes it easier to control neck tension - particularly when using a Redding neck sizer or equivalent - but if the chamber is SAMMI - then it means the necks on fired cases need to be reduced several thousanths (often .015" or more) to hold a bullet - more than if the neck had not been turned. This induces runnout by virtue of the amount of resizing and heavily work hardens brass.

Heavy neck resizing also forms a taper to the neck with the mouth the smallest point and this plays havoc with perceived neck tension. A diligent hand loader who is aware of this can resize the neck twice to correct for it. First rough neck resize bushing would be .002" larger than the final size. The second finish pass neck resize removes the taper.

When a barrel is chambered with the appropriate custom reamer - then it's all good because resizing is minimal which minimizes work hardening of the brass and because the diameter is being reduced only a couple thou - there is less opportunity for the introduction of runout and concentricity issues.
Click to expand...
 
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I totally agree, neck tension or "grip" makes or breaks you at mid to longrange and sometimes is the hardest thing to control, I use Lapua mostly but on gopher guns Win or Rem is more practical, I shoot with 2 guys that have bought or made annealers so might give that a try one day

Grant
Mystic Precision said:
Proper annealing and case prep can help keep the brass as consistent as humanly possible.

There is now a seater with a force gauge. As you seat the bullet, it indicates how much force is needed. By keeping that number the same or in a small region, the assumption is that neck tension is also the same.

Inference: if the neck has the same tension, the amount of force needed to push the bullet in should be the same.

Never tried it so can't say. BUT neck tension is so very important for consistent LR accuracy.

Far more so, then a raft of things.

Jerry
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Grant, the first time you anneal PROPERLY and see how the brass responds, you will be annealing as time allows.

Annealing has to be done properly and the difference between yum and crap is less then a second in the flame.

A good machine with a repeatable cycle really helps pull all this together.

In the long run, it is way cheaper then having to replace, prep and form new brass.

Jerry
 
thanks for the info Jerry, one of my buddies bought I think is a Grizzly Annealer, not sure on the name, he also uses a heat paste to check for correct temp, is this the right direction to go in regards to annealing, like I mentioned somewhere, brass to me is the cheap part as I seem to get 8-10 reloads before I see any signs of neck failures

Grant
 
For those out there who are not interested in annealing cases, you can just use light but consistent neck tension.

The idea is that if you have 10 pounds of neck tension and a variance of 20 percent, then your variance in neck tension is 2 pounds.

On the other hand, if you have only 1 pound of neck tension with a variance of 20 percent, then your variance is only 0.2 pounds.

The trick is in how you size necks to control neck tension on a case by case basis. Basically all you have to do is size all your cases with a neck resize bushing that is close to the right size. Then after resizing the neck, just use a bullet as a no go gage. Cases that have tension go in the good pile, cases that are still sloppy go in the resize more pile. Then you reduce the resize bushing by .001 and run them all from the resize pile again.

Just repeat until all cases have just a little neck tension and the case to case variation in neck tension will be only slight.

You will notice that over time as your case necks get work hardened that the bushing required will get smaller over time to compensate for increasing spring back. Just expect it and just reduce the bushing size as needed.

For many out there, this might be a good compromise, even if it is a little time consuming.
 
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Grant Shave said:
thanks for the info Jerry, one of my buddies bought I think is a Grizzly Annealer, not sure on the name, he also uses a heat paste to check for correct temp, is this the right direction to go in regards to annealing, like I mentioned somewhere, brass to me is the cheap part as I seem to get 8-10 reloads before I see any signs of neck failures

Grant
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Grant, that is the basic tools for the task. Of course, there are different annealers but the principle is the same - expose case to heat for a set period of time.

I use a welding crayon and set so that it flashes off just as the case leaves the flame. Seems to give a consistent "burn".

I think you will find that the case alloy will change after as little as 3 firings. I have had some work with 8 to 10 firings too so you need to be able to track how things are changing.

If you have the tool set up, it really only takes a few minutes to do a pile of brass. It will become just another step in the reloading process and you might even start doing it every firing or two.

Jerry
 
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