Reduced charges for lighter recoil - How low can you go?

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lmcc

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Hi All,

First off, I know some may advise that if a person can't manage the recoil of a full load, they probably need to shoot a smaller cartridge. I would generally agree. I wanted to do this for friends, some women and young people who might have more fun of they weren't being shoved around quite so hard.

I'm interested in experimenting with reduced charges to lighten recoil. Reloading data typically has starting loads and max loads, but how low can you go?

I know that if your loads are too light they won't cycle auto-loading actions, but I was thinking of doing this for my lever (.44 mag) and bolt (.308) guns.

I expect that if my loads got *really* light the brass might not seal the chamber properly when fired. I expect that would be dangerous. (Is this a realistic fear?)
What else do I need to consider?

Who here down-loads? What are your experiences?

Thanks for your input guys.


-lmcc
 
Secodary Explosion Effect. http://africanxmag.com/secondary_explosion_effect.htm
Basically, the theory is that if there's enough empty space in the cartridge the powder can "flash over" and you'll get a massive pressure spike when surface area equal to half the case ignites at the same time. Same idea as sawdust in the air igniting, it only burns for a fraction of a second, but it's enough to cause serious damage. My dad was caught in a sawdust explosion and got burnt pretty badly.

Now there are certain things you can use for "filler" to take up space in the cartridge without having undue effect on the performance. The blackpowder guys might know more as they have experience with needing lower power loads for older guns.
 
JonMtl said:
You can take a look at Trail Boss powder, high volume and lots of info on reduced loads.
Click to expand...


Trail Boss all the way for really light loads, it's a very bulky powder. Load your 44mag up like a big pellet gun using cast bullets.


Edit: just checked notes. 4.0gr trail boss under 180 lead flat nose was under 700 FPS. 6.9gr trail boss under 240gr lead round nose was 875 fps. This is out of a Marlin lever gun.

Trail boss is expensive powder though, Unique was another favorite of mine for the 44 magnum. anywhere from 8-10.5 gr depending on bullet and the velocity I was after.
 
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This is routinely done and is very safe and easy. Have a look at cast bullets for the rifles in question. The idea is to have bullets cast of lead alloy in a wieght matching the calibre pushed by very small charges of shotshell/pistol powder.

I will give you an example. I load my 30/06 with 8 grains of Herco and a cast lee 160 grain round nose for a whopping 1200 fps. Very accurate and so easy to shoot. Great to practice with the hunting rifles at a level of power and recoil anyone can manage. It will sort out your flinch pronto! Of course you can drive them harder but the idea becomes loading for accuracy and once you get it everything else becomes secondary. You can sure shoot a lot of loads from a can of powder when you are taking 10 grains or so per load.

Do some online searching and you will see that there is a whole world devoted to this, and the rewards are many.
 
S.E.E. is mentioned above and should be on your mind but not a real concern. Though this can happen under certain very specific circumstances, it is extremely rare. If you are following published loading data with the reccomended powders you will need neither fillers nor extra life insurance. S.E.E. occus when you do something off the beaten path, with a combination of powder primer and bullet that is incorrect.

How low can you go? If you look into the .44 mag you will get plenty of sub sonic data.
 
There are two general approaches I have used, both have been successful. The first is what Remington uses with their "Managed Recoil" line of ammo. This method uses a light for caliber bullet loaded with a fairly fast powder. H4895 is your friend. This method is most useful when you still want a useful hunting load you can use to take down a deer, but you just want it lighter on the shoulder, or perhaps if you'd like to try and get a female interested in shooting without the pain of recoil. If you intend on hunting with these loads you'll need to rezero because there WILL be a difference in POI from using full power loads.

The second is to use a normal for caliber bullet but load it with Trail Boss, and results in much lower velocities and pressures than using H4895. This method is most useful when you want to use your big game rifle for small game. I usually have a few Trail Boss loads in my pocket for grouse. The Trail Boss load shoots very good groups in my 7mmRM, POI is ten inches lower than full power loads at 100 yards.

Good data for both methods is available on the Hodgdon web site.
 
Stevebot-7 said:
Secodary Explosion Effect. http://africanxmag.com/secondary_explosion_effect.htm
Click to expand...

This can be easily avoided by using light charges of fast burning powder (typically pistol and/or shotgun powders). It is a very real concern when using light charges of slow burning powders, though.


shredder0 said:
This is routinely done and is very safe and easy. Have a look at cast bullets for the rifles in question. The idea is to have bullets cast of lead alloy in a wieght matching the calibre pushed by very small charges of shotshell/pistol powder.
Click to expand...

+1. I load .44 Mag with 6.0-8.0gr of WW231 under 245gr cast bullets for light plinking loads in my Redhawk. 6.0gr of 231 would turn OP's rifle into a pop gun with very minimal recoil and muzzle blast.


Mark
 
I've actually managed to create a 12 gauge target practice slug that has NO felt recoil at all!!!

Take a bulk Winchester bird shot load, cut off the crimps folded in flaps so you still have the lip in place to retain a slug, empty out the bird shot and use a hot glue gun to fill the place of the shot.

Your shotgun literally becomes a cap gun that anyone including young children can shoot with no recoil out to 50 yards, farthest I've shot with these loads.

Sorry I don't have any loads that can help with your .44 or .308 .
 
I load a lot of cast bullets with velocities from 700fps to 2000fps. I have also used cast bullet data with jacketed bullets to get reduced loads and have fired a couple hundred without any issues. I have some loads for my .300WM that are shooting 180gr SP jacketed bullets at .308 Win velocities. I would recommend the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook for some reduced loads. So long as you are using the same weight bullet that is mostly lead there aren't any issues. I wouldn't use this method for lead free bullets though as they tend to need somewhat different load data.

Some popular powders for cast bullet loads in .308, and thus would also work for reduced loads with normal jacketed bullets, are SR-4759, H/IMR 4198, Unique, Trail Boss, and H/IMR 4895. As I already said, buy the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook and you are pretty much set. In .308 with 185gr bullets (cast but could substitute 180gr jacketed) I find Unique gives the best accuracy with kitten fart recoil and SR-4759 or IMR4895 give the best accuracy with reduced but still useful recoil. When loading Unique you are often using around 20% case capacity so the powder may not be against the primer. For these loads I always use magnum primers and have had zero FTF's.

For light loads in 44 mag I just use 44 special data in 44 mag brass. I mark them to keep track of which are which and since they are in 44 mag brass they can never be mixed up in a dangerous way.

I believe it was Norma who managed to get SEE's as close to a science as possible. They concluded that it required slow burning magnum powders, a large capacity case with lots of air space, and at or below a 30% capacity charge, all at the same time. Even when providing as close to the optimum conditions as they could, a SEE occurred less than half the time. I did a lot of reading and searching around for information on SEE's and a lot of accounts of it involved experimental, unpublished data, non-specific load data (often the amount of powder was given as "about" or "around" so many grains), and very often occurred where a double or sometimes triple powder charge could have easily fit in the case. Saying you "know" it wasn't a double or triple charge when the evidence has, literally, gone up in smoke is a bit of a stretch. Even if all the other rounds where disassembled and no double or triple charges where found how can you say with total certainty that the one that blew up the gun wasn't? Many loads that purportedly caused a SEE have been extensively tested in laboratory settings by all the major ammo manufacturers with no SEE occurring under controlled conditions.
 
For the .44 magnum I have used 7.0 grains Unique. Out of a handgun it is really light to shoot and out of a rifle the recoil is not existent. In fact when I shot it out of the rifle at 100 yards it was hitting the ground before the target. I did have the rifle sighted in for some very heavy loads at 100 yards when I started.
I also tried Trail Boss at 7.2 grains and it was lighter than 7.0 grains Unique. I did want to try to shoot it with my ear plugs off to hear the noise since you can hardly hear the shot. In fact the first time I shot that load I checked the barrel as I was unsure if the projectile left the barrel. I tried 6.0 grains of Trail Boss in the handgun and it was lighter than 7.0 grains Unique.
I do find for light loads 7.0 grains Unique to be very accurate. In fact in the handgun I can get 6” 10 shot groups at 20 yards.
Several people suggested using the 44 Special but I found the cost of the brass and how hard it was to find a deterrent so I never tried.
 
"...reduced charges to lighten recoil..." Just reducing the charege won't help much. Using a lighter bullet will.
"...use a hot glue gun to fill the place of the shot..." That's a blank and that wad of glue can seriously hurt or kill.
 
This is Hornady's concept in a reduced factory loading in .308 Win:

ht tp://www.hornady.com/store/308-Win-125-gr-SST-customlite/

125g projectile at 2675 ft/sec.

I'm handloading something similar with 130g Speer projectiles and H4895 for .308 Win.
Hornady published data for their 130g projectile has 2500 ft/sec starting loads,
which include H4895 powder data. (#8, page 492).
 
Gee, won't penetrate the backer? That's probably around 400 to 600 ft/sec.

If you're going seriously light, projectiles sticking in the bore is a serious issue.
Less so for lubricated lead (as opposed to jacketed).

Nice article on subsonic loading:

ht tp://members.shaw.ca/cronhelm/DevelopSubsonic.html
 
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One of my all-time favorite light loads is 5 grains of 700X under a 93 grain Lee WW bullet in 30-30. 700X is fast burning.
 
Was just shooting 405gr OMA cast boolits over 12 and 13 grains of trail boss at the range from my 18" TC pro hunter, my Keltec sub 2k 9mm had more recoil... Trail boss gets my vote.
 
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