Proper operation of the 1911.
- Thread starter Skinny 1950
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I have no doubt that the loss of fine motor control is very real. However, in the event of a high stress situation, you may not have a free hand to rack the slide if needed.
I'd like to think being proficient in the use of the slide release, which everyone can do with one hand, would be the best option.
Combined with the fact that removing an empty mag also involves hitting a small (sometimes smaller than the slide release) button so saying it's too hard to hit the slide release makes no sense. Not saying it's wrong or better or worse, but saying if you can train yourself enough to be able to hit a small mag release under stress, you can do the same for the slide release.
Having said that, I general rack overhand for reloads.
I rack overhand for multiple reasons.
I agree with the gross motor skill bit because I have trained under stress and have had numb finger tips during that training.
Your heart rate hits a certain level, and it's cave man brain mode. No trouble at all grabbing the slide and tearing it backwards. I'm sure with enough practice I could hit that slide release every time, but nobody pays me to train so I go for the most efficient method that works exactly the same on all pistols.
The other good reason is that racking the slide is part of the procedure for the most common malfunction (ftf, bad round re: tap-rack-bang), and as with anything else, the more you do a motion, the quicker you can do that motion.
Funny story: I've engrained the tap-rack-bang in my g/f as it's been taught to me... so some dude walks up to her at the range while she tap-racks a dummy round out of her m&p9, and says she should tap the mag first... lol. I had to interject and let him know that she had tapped the mag quicker than his eyes could pick up and that if he was gonna catch it he better look hard and fast. Atta girl!!
Who'd of thought a failure prone m&p 22 could be so valuable as a training tool...
I agree with the gross motor skill bit because I have trained under stress and have had numb finger tips during that training.
Your heart rate hits a certain level, and it's cave man brain mode. No trouble at all grabbing the slide and tearing it backwards. I'm sure with enough practice I could hit that slide release every time, but nobody pays me to train so I go for the most efficient method that works exactly the same on all pistols.
The other good reason is that racking the slide is part of the procedure for the most common malfunction (ftf, bad round re: tap-rack-bang), and as with anything else, the more you do a motion, the quicker you can do that motion.
Funny story: I've engrained the tap-rack-bang in my g/f as it's been taught to me... so some dude walks up to her at the range while she tap-racks a dummy round out of her m&p9, and says she should tap the mag first... lol. I had to interject and let him know that she had tapped the mag quicker than his eyes could pick up and that if he was gonna catch it he better look hard and fast. Atta girl!!
Who'd of thought a failure prone m&p 22 could be so valuable as a training tool...
The OP asked the proper way to operate a 1911 and Tengoo touched on it before the slingshot vs. overhand racking method debate.
Truth be told, the last thing anyone wants to have to do in an obvious stressful situation (live or die...right now!) is rack their pistol. The 1911 is designed to be carried chambered with the safety up (on), once out of the holster and pointed at the threat (notice I didn't say aimed, you won't have time) a sweep of the thumb and fire {sorry lefties, the 1911 is for right hand operation}.
Tengoo touched on this point. I was also taught to count my rounds always and here's why, there was a thread here about a WW1 officer who was issued John Moses' new fangled "auto pistol" and describes in detail how the military of the day trained him to use it. {@ the time most if not all military side arms were revolvers} Use it he did, in the trenches of Europe and it saved his life on an occasion. He was taught to also count rounds, fire 6, mag dump, and you still have a round chambered (that will fire) to deal with a threat while you're fumbling for a full mag ( 7 rd mags). Yes, you would most likely be fumbling as the adrenaline from the just past and current attempts on your life is a biological fact that we cannot argue.
A tool that provides the user more options than that of trying to eject and reload an empty revolver {without moon clips} while someone or several someone's are trying their damndest to kill you was most appreciated by this un-named solider.
If the 7th round threat doesn't present itself while you insert another mag, there is still no need to rack the slide. The gun, was not by design intended to be shot dry. This was drilled into this gentleman over and over by his military instructors until it became second nature. This at a time when the 1911 design was 3 years old and its designer alive and well to assist the U.S. military with its purposeful operation.
OP, BTW you should in my humble opinion overhand rack to clear a FTF{or if that 7th round threat does present itself and the firearm is shot dry I suppose}. I'm also a believer that the "slingshot" can prove to slip every now and again and therefore should not be relied upon.
Truth be told, the last thing anyone wants to have to do in an obvious stressful situation (live or die...right now!) is rack their pistol. The 1911 is designed to be carried chambered with the safety up (on), once out of the holster and pointed at the threat (notice I didn't say aimed, you won't have time) a sweep of the thumb and fire {sorry lefties, the 1911 is for right hand operation}.
Tengoo touched on this point. I was also taught to count my rounds always and here's why, there was a thread here about a WW1 officer who was issued John Moses' new fangled "auto pistol" and describes in detail how the military of the day trained him to use it. {@ the time most if not all military side arms were revolvers} Use it he did, in the trenches of Europe and it saved his life on an occasion. He was taught to also count rounds, fire 6, mag dump, and you still have a round chambered (that will fire) to deal with a threat while you're fumbling for a full mag ( 7 rd mags). Yes, you would most likely be fumbling as the adrenaline from the just past and current attempts on your life is a biological fact that we cannot argue.
A tool that provides the user more options than that of trying to eject and reload an empty revolver {without moon clips} while someone or several someone's are trying their damndest to kill you was most appreciated by this un-named solider.
If the 7th round threat doesn't present itself while you insert another mag, there is still no need to rack the slide. The gun, was not by design intended to be shot dry. This was drilled into this gentleman over and over by his military instructors until it became second nature. This at a time when the 1911 design was 3 years old and its designer alive and well to assist the U.S. military with its purposeful operation.
OP, BTW you should in my humble opinion overhand rack to clear a FTF{or if that 7th round threat does present itself and the firearm is shot dry I suppose}. I'm also a believer that the "slingshot" can prove to slip every now and again and therefore should not be relied upon.
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Manipulation of a slide stop is a fine motor skill. During stress, fine motor skills perish, and if one solely trains in that regard, they may very well perish with those fine motor skills.
Gross motor skills, such as an over hand rack during a stoppage, or during an emergency reload can vastly improve ones survivability. You may be able to thumb drop that safety on a calm day during training, but you are more likely to hit that over grip every time regardless of how much stress you have. Fine motor skills are quick when done right, but fumble them and you add seconds, and quite possibly add further malfunctions into the mix under stress.
Train hard, train with stress, and whenever possible train using gross motor skills.
If you have the mindset and the ability to ensure proper round count during stress, and can speed reload an empty mag with one in the chamber, you truly are ahead of the game. Not impossible, but I have better things to do than count rounds in a true "stress" scenario. More about round placement, movement and cover than "1, 2, 3, 4,....."
This right here is yet more evidence supporting over hand racking.
I fully agree that using the slide lock one handed is something you should be able to do. However, it should not be your primary method as its tedious and not as reliable.
Tdc
Clobbersauras
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Waaay out west.
I guess I'm not conventional at all. Ive read all the material and watched all the video's and taken some courses, so now I just do what comes natural for me.
1) When I rack the slide I use the slingshot method (yes - pinch the rear of the slide between my thumb and forefinger). For me, it's a more natural movement and faster than "power stroking" the gun. I used to powerstroke, but it was pointed out by an instructor that powerstroking is less economical in terms of movement than the sling shot method. Also when powerstroking the gun it is possible to place your hand over the ejection port and cause a stoppage by not allowing the cartridge to eject properly.
2) I use my dominant hand thumb to release the slide. I know this goes against conventional doctrine, but I have long fingers, and have no trouble reaching the release without changing my grip. I have to reposition my thumb after re-establishing a two handed grip anyway. Works for me.
PS - for all the fine Vs gross motor skill BS. PRESSING THE TRIGGER IS A FINE MOTOR SKILL. If you think you can't operate the slide release under stress you might as well throw your pistol away and run like a girl because you won't be able to press the trigger either.
1) When I rack the slide I use the slingshot method (yes - pinch the rear of the slide between my thumb and forefinger). For me, it's a more natural movement and faster than "power stroking" the gun. I used to powerstroke, but it was pointed out by an instructor that powerstroking is less economical in terms of movement than the sling shot method. Also when powerstroking the gun it is possible to place your hand over the ejection port and cause a stoppage by not allowing the cartridge to eject properly.
2) I use my dominant hand thumb to release the slide. I know this goes against conventional doctrine, but I have long fingers, and have no trouble reaching the release without changing my grip. I have to reposition my thumb after re-establishing a two handed grip anyway. Works for me.
PS - for all the fine Vs gross motor skill BS. PRESSING THE TRIGGER IS A FINE MOTOR SKILL. If you think you can't operate the slide release under stress you might as well throw your pistol away and run like a girl because you won't be able to press the trigger either.
- Location
- East of Home, West of the Rest
Yes. Pressing the trigger is a fine motor skill. So is hitting the slide release. So is hitting the mag release. It isn't about not using fine motor skills, it is about minimizing the use of fine motor skills so you don't overload a nervous system that is losing its ability to control fine motor skills during stress.
Some people can't keep from pooping themselves under stress. And that is a pretty major motor skill.
Some people can't keep from pooping themselves under stress. And that is a pretty major motor skill.
Clobbersauras
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Waaay out west.
So you press the trigger 10 or 15 or 17 times and then you press the mag release once and hit the slide release once (god forbid it even gets to that) and your nervous system is overloaded?
Sorry, I'm not buying it.
- Location
- East of Home, West of the Rest
Exactly. 10 to 17 reps per mag for trigger vs 1 rep per mag on a slide/mag release. If you don't buy into it that is fine, Trigger+slide+mag equals not a lot to stress over in front of paper, or waiting for an ipsc beep.
Trigger+slide+mag+moving to cover+rounds incoming+moving targets+audible exclusion+tunnel vision+ elevated heartrate+++++
There is stress, and then there is stress. Until you really pile it on, you don't know how you'll react. Whether using a gun, or driving, or whatever, under stress fine motor skills degrade. It is a scientific and physical fact.
I'm not trying to convince you or anyone else. I know what works for me on the platform I use. Like anything, just personal preference and opinion.
Trigger+slide+mag+moving to cover+rounds incoming+moving targets+audible exclusion+tunnel vision+ elevated heartrate+++++
There is stress, and then there is stress. Until you really pile it on, you don't know how you'll react. Whether using a gun, or driving, or whatever, under stress fine motor skills degrade. It is a scientific and physical fact.
I'm not trying to convince you or anyone else. I know what works for me on the platform I use. Like anything, just personal preference and opinion.
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You should try pushing yourself beyond your own limits before judging others who have.
It makes no difference to me if you ever evolve as a shooter, I just think it's laughable that you're so adamant about a concept/realm that you clearly do not understand.
Clobbersauras
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Waaay out west.
I actually find this a fairly amusing statement.
I understand the concepts discussed here. I've read about them at length. I've discussed them at length with those who know what it is to use fine motor skills under extreme stress. Fortunately, outside of some courses where the instructor has ramped up the stress level, I'll never have to find out if what I've read and experienced and learned is true or not. But I've read all the buzz words from bloggers and internet experts and then decided to read and listen to subject matter experts I respect. I'm fine with my conclusions.
I'm also very grateful I'll only have to use my slide release to engage cardboard.
Just to get everyone's terminology straight... racking the slide is also a fine motor skill, it is just not as complex/precise as hitting a slide lock/release.
A gross motor skill is like walking, standing upright (yes, this is one that we have to learn, but by this age we are all masters of it), dodging, etc.
For this reason, saying gross motor skill vs fine motor skill is not a valid argument, though saying it is a more complex/precise action and thus tends to be harder to do under stress without more training is valid.
Again, I generally rack the slide overhand but don't hate on using the slide lock/release either, and hate seeing incorrect statements being used as evidence to either.
I shoot a lot of bullseye and always use the slingshot method for that. If I have to worry about loss of fine motor control there, then I'm pretty much f*cked for scoring anyway. 
In action shooting I will slingshot for the "load and make ready" and on a reload use the thumb of my weak hand to release the slide as it moves to resume the two-handed grip, which seems to me to save me a fraction of a second compared to other methods. I have used both methods thousands of times over the years, and am pretty confident in my ability to do them even under duress, but really, that's not why I have the guns or why I use them. I don't carry a handgun with me on the street, and given the storage conditions they are under at home don't hold out much hope of accessing them in time for self defence there, either. I wish I could have the option to carry, but that's not why I have the guns. So I don't practice for scenarios other than shooting at paper and steel.
In action shooting I will slingshot for the "load and make ready" and on a reload use the thumb of my weak hand to release the slide as it moves to resume the two-handed grip, which seems to me to save me a fraction of a second compared to other methods. I have used both methods thousands of times over the years, and am pretty confident in my ability to do them even under duress, but really, that's not why I have the guns or why I use them. I don't carry a handgun with me on the street, and given the storage conditions they are under at home don't hold out much hope of accessing them in time for self defence there, either. I wish I could have the option to carry, but that's not why I have the guns. So I don't practice for scenarios other than shooting at paper and steel.You're wasting your time. clearly those who have neither trained nor pushed their limits know the effects of stress. These same people never consider the concept of firing with their non dominant hand or clearing a stoppage without both hands. Static slow fire is all the experience a guy needs.
Tdc
Yes, yes indeed. Well said sir.
