Straight Pull, bolt action CZ-858?

[harbl_the_cat]

So this thread got me thinking:

http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?875475-400-Chinese-copy-of-the-VZ58-(CZ858-ETC-)

Given that the VZ-58 parts that end up being morphed into the various clones we consume here in Canada need to be re-barrelled anyway to be classified NR, why is it that no importer has thought to ask the various Czech manufacturers to make a model that doesn't make use of the VZ-58 gas system, aka - create a straight pull, bolt action? I think such a modification is VERY simple (don't drill a hole in the barrel for the gas port or drill them such that they don't connect to the gas port, don't include a piston, piston return spring, maybe not even an upper hand guard) - so theoretically, if anything, it should DECREASE the cost to manufacture and assemble and the cost to end consumers should be even lower.

The implications of this are obvious, so I won't go into detail of why, but on a more practical note, I've taken my non-res 858's, mounted a barrel clamp and put a 2-6 power long eye relief scope or red dot sight on the barrel and they have been real tack drivers. Of course, especially at longer ranges, there's not much of a need for semi-auto and the 7.62x39 kicks enough that you might as well cycle the action to chamber a new round.

Also, without the gas system to worry about, cleaning time should almost be cut in half.

Any thoughts?

 

[Corps]

So this thread got me thinking:

http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?875475-400-Chinese-copy-of-the-VZ58-(CZ858-ETC-)

Given that the VZ-58 parts that end up being morphed into the various clones we consume here in Canada need to be re-barrelled anyway to be classified NR, why is it that no importer has thought to ask the various Czech manufacturers to make a model that doesn't make use of the VZ-58 gas system, aka - create a straight pull, bolt action? I think such a modification is VERY simple (don't drill a hole in the barrel for the gas port or drill them such that they don't connect to the gas port, don't include a piston, piston return spring, maybe not even an upper hand guard) - so theoretically, if anything, it should DECREASE the cost to manufacture and assemble and the cost to end consumers should be even lower.

The implications of this are obvious, so I won't go into detail of why, but on a more practical note, I've taken my non-res 858's, mounted a barrel clamp and put a 2-6 power long eye relief scope or red dot sight on the barrel and they have been real tack drivers. Of course, especially at longer ranges, there's not much of a need for semi-auto and the 7.62x39 kicks enough that you might as well cycle the action to chamber a new round.

Also, without the gas system to worry about, cleaning time should almost be cut in half.

Any thoughts?

The subject has been covered quite a few times.

If the rifles look the same, act the same, then I doubt RCMP will approve of standard capacity magazines.

If you have in mind the CSR situation, keep in mind that it is a whole new platform. The internals can't simply be simply converted to work in a semi-automatic fashion. If a semi-auto platform comes along, it will not be the same rifle.

For your goal to have been slightly more achievable, the Vz 58 platform would have to have been a bolt action rifle from the start (1958), which would have then been adapted to fire semi-automatically later on.

 

[ActiveShooter]

I think we are better off hoping for a pallet of VZ58 pistols to be imported...followed by a couple containers of 10 round pistol mags!!

 

[Stevo]

I think we are better off hoping for a pallet of VZ58 pistols to be imported...followed by a couple containers of 10 round pistol mags!!

Exactly.

 

[harbl_the_cat]

The subject has been covered quite a few times.

If the rifles look the same, act the same, then I doubt RCMP will approve of standard capacity magazines.

If you have in mind the CSR situation, keep in mind that it is a whole new platform. The internals can't simply be simply converted to work in a semi-automatic fashion. If a semi-auto platform comes along, it will not be the same rifle.

For your goal to have been slightly more achievable, the Vz 58 platform would have to have been a bolt action rifle from the start (1958), which would have then been adapted to fire semi-automatically later on.

Well, the thing is let's say the 858 strait pull rifle is created and approved. Technically all he mags that exist today have been designed and manufactured for the vz58 and must be pinned.

Could not someone with a 3D printer design and manufacture a legal mag for the 858 SPR?

 

[Ar180shooter]

Well, the thing is let's say the 858 strait pull rifle is created and approved. Technically all he mags that exist today have been designed and manufactured for the vz58 and must be pinned.

Could not someone with a 3D printer design and manufacture a legal mag for the 858 SPR?

The RCMP would likely just say it's a VZ-58 mag.

 

[Corps]

Well, the thing is let's say the 858 strait pull rifle is created and approved. Technically all he mags that exist today have been designed and manufactured for the vz58 and must be pinned.

Could not someone with a 3D printer design and manufacture a legal mag for the 858 SPR?

No, because I doubt the average guy 3D printing in a basement would be able to prove to a judge that the magazine he printed was not intended for use in his semi, but in fact in his bolt action. Any prosecutor worth his salt would get you convicted.

If it was a proprietary magazine, he would get away with it.

 

[mmattockx]

I think we are better off hoping for a pallet of VZ58 pistols to be imported...followed by a couple containers of 10 round pistol mags!!

+1. There is no gray area with that and the odds of success are pretty much 100%.

Could not someone with a 3D printer design and manufacture a legal mag for the 858 SPR?

The RCMP would likely just say it's a VZ-58 mag.

Yep, just as they did with the Remington 7615 and whatever Mossberg takes AR mags. The RCMP would likely rule that any mag that fits into the VZ sporting rifle would be considered a vz58/858 mag and required to be pinned to 5.


Mark

 

[harbl_the_cat]

Yep, just as they did with the Remington 7615 and whatever Mossberg takes AR mags. The RCMP would likely rule that any mag that fits into the VZ sporting rifle would be considered a vz58/858 mag and required to be pinned to 5.


Mark

Thing is, what could they do to stop it?

Again, hypnotically speaking, if a non-res, straight pull bolt action 858 entered the market and was approved by the RCMP, what is stopping someone with the right now how (which obviously there are an emerging number) to design a magazine from the ground up specifically for that rifle AND manufacture it?

Thing I don't get is why the RCMP determine of something is legal or not. It has been beaten to death that when it comes to magazines "designed and manufactured for" is the law. The law is the law, only up until recently, the ability for individuals to design and manufacture there own items, such as magazines, required a lot of specific knowledge, skill, and equipment that only a few possessed and with which the ability to practically manufacture large quantities with repeat precision was limited.

Very soon this will NOT be the case, and all the loopholes from the 20 year old monstrosity that is the firearms act will be as easily bypassed as it is to press CTRL + P on a keyboard.

The best part, is established businesses don't even have to risk a thing.

Lets say a business here just got an FRT for a straight pull, bolt action 858 and only sold it with pinned 5 round 858 mags.

Guaranteed a separate entrepreneur would interpret the law LITERALLY and design and manufacture a magazine SPECIFICALLY for that rifle. The second he printed said magazine, there's nothing the RCMP can do, except find someone who is in possession of it and charge them with being in possession of a prohibited device.

What happens next? It goes to court and the dude who printed the mags (if he has any good sense) presents as evidence the print files that SPECIFICALLY say the mags are designed and manufactured for the straight pull rifle. Prior to printing, he builds into the design the text on the side of the mag "designed and manufactured for the 858 straight pull."

What does the judge say when he sees that?

We all know the RCMP, police brass across the country have a disarmament agenda. We also all know that Parliament is a joke and nothing meaningful will come from asking politicians.

Right now, though, there is 20 year old legislation that fairly effectively pressed this disarmament agenda, but was NOT designed to take into account the ability of private individuals to design and produce their own firearms and firearms accessories in a convenient, easy, repeatable fashion.

For now, I think one of the best things to happen is mass exploitation of loopholes to the point that a decision ends up being made in the Supreme Court, rather than by the Liberal Party of Canada (because obviously, the Tories aren't going to do anything to change the status quo).

 

[Corps]

Thing is, what could they do to stop it?

Again, hypnotically speaking, if a non-res, straight pull bolt action 858 entered the market and was approved by the RCMP, what is stopping someone with the right now how (which obviously there are an emerging number) to design a magazine from the ground up specifically for that rifle AND manufacture it?

What's stopping little Johnny from murdering little Alice next door while her parents are out of town?

It's the law. Sure, you can break it, but people will be mad at you when they find out you did.

If you want to print a magazine not approved by the RCMP, go ahead. If an officer is not right besides you while you do it, you'll be fine right at that moment. Just don't cry when you get a prohibition later on, as well as a tax payer funded trip to your nearest neighborhood prison.

 

[mikethebike]

Why break the law? So you can shoot more rounds in a row? I dunno seems like a pretty stupid thing to do, like drinking a case of 24 and going driving, might not get caught but when (not if, when) you do you're in a world of hurt, most probably in the anal region by a moustached mom bouche.

Why?

http://4.bp.########.com/-eg3RLqaSnmY/T4L-dOa80eI/AAAAAAAABJ0/JUb4SGd0Kdw/s1600/but-why-meme-generator-but-why-84103d.jpg&sa=X&ei=8ocFUISmCIWD4gS3tPGFCQ&ved=0CAkQ8wc&usg=AFQjCNGAOxqAXaiAlm8YM-ve2TYTgw9Aiw

 

[harbl_the_cat]

BECAUSE IN THE SCENARIO I DESCRIBED, IT WOULD NOT BE AGAINST THE LAW.

A good example are butler creek 25 round 10/22 magazines versus the Ruger BX-25 magazine. The BX-25 magazine is prohibited BECAUSE IT IS DESIGNED AND MANUFACTURED for BOTH the 10/22 rifle and the Charger pistol.

The Butler Creek 25-round banana magazine is designed and manufactured for the 10/22 ONLY. Sure, it fits in the Charger - but it was not designed to do so and Butler Creek makes no indication that they do. See here:

ruger.com/news/2011-04-29b.html

The BX-25 magazine will work in all vintages of Ruger 10/22 and SR-22® rifles, as well as all Ruger Charger™ pistols.

This sentence is the ONLY reason the BX-25 is illegal.

and here:

butler-creek.com/products/magazine_banana.html

Our famous Hot Lips and Steel Lips Magazines in 25-round versions for your 10/22.

This sentence is the only reason the Butler Creek 25-rounders are legal, even though they can be used in a pistol.

Ultimately, what it comes down to is the intention of the designer and manufacturer. If they state their intention is to make a 30-round magazine for an as of present, non-existent, straight pull 858 clone ONLY - it's not illegal. If they state their intention is to make a 30-round magazine for BOTH the straight pull AND the 858, that would make it illegal.

You and I both know this is a MASSIVE oversight with the existing regulations - but guess what what? The Gun Control Lobby (including the RMCP) does too. If they're staying mum on the whole issue, it's only because they are waiting to get their men in office so they can re-write the entire criminal code to, oh, I don't know, make EVERY 3D printed magazine a prohibited device, regardless of whether or not it complies with the capacity regulations or worse, say it's illegal to use a magazine in a gun other than the one it was designed for, or worse, ban all semi-automatics.

Loopholes and oversights like these NEED to get exploited to maximum capacity, especially with the 3D printing revolution in it's infancy. Right now, if someone with a 3D printer makes a 30-round 858 magazines, it is absolutely illegal BECAUSE ALL 858's are semi-automatic and ALL the magazines built for them to date are designed and manufactured for them. Add a straight pull, bolt action 858 into the mix, and things start getting interesting and that's where the exploitation of these loopholes can do massive damage to the entire gun control regimen that's in place in this country.

By the RCMP's own words:

rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/bulletins/bus-ent/20110323-72-eng.htm

...magazines designed to contain centrefire cartridges and designed or manufactured for use in a rifle other than a semiautomatic or automatic rifle, do not have a regulated capacity

The maximum permitted capacity of a magazine is determined by the kind of firearm it is designed or manufactured for use in and not the kind of firearm it might actually be used in. As a consequence, the maximum permitted capacity remains the same regardless of which firearm it might be used in.

As for the 7615, by Remington's own press releases they insinuate quite clearly that the magazines they design and manufacture for them are AR-15 magazines
see here: remington.com/en/products/archived/centerfire/pump-action/model-7615.aspx

Its satin-finish American walnut stock houses a 7615 action with a 10-round AR-15 magazine

Model 7615 comes standard with a ten-round magazine and accepts aftermarket AR-15 magazine boxes

And here:
remingtonle.com/rifles/7615.htm

The Model 7615P comes in .223 Remington caliber, uses standard M16/AR15 style magazines

All 7615’s are supplied with a “low profile” 10 round magazine.

Remington advertises that this gun uses AR-15 magazines and they provide a 10 round magazine. As the designer and manufacturer of the gun AND magazine, they are publicizing that they designed and manufactured the magazine to be used for both.

Let's say some as of yet incorporated company, "Canadian 3D Printed Gun Parts Inc." makes a press release saying:
"Our magazines are designed and manufactured for the CZ-858 Straight Pull, Bolt Action Rifle ONLY"

If it comes before a judge - what are they going to say? I don't know - it's a VERY grey area - but that's exactly the point. Rather than waiting for some useless politician to try to change things, forcing the government's hands by exploiting outdated legislation I think is a more interesting, and I think, potentially a more effective move to make.

 

[supernova]

Just like the pump action AR was a real hit... No full capacity mags for a manually operated action variant of an automatic have ever been approved. The RCMP will kill it with fire and the capitol investment will go down the drain along with the profits and overpriced, underwhelming straight pull variant of an otherwise cool, fun gun.

 

[mikethebike]

If the exact same magazine fits both in a bolt action and a semi action firearm, the semi action firearm rules apply. Doesn't matter what if it was designed for a bolt action.

Thats life in Canada, live with it.

Come out with a cz858 semi automatic pistol, it would then have a magazine that would hold 10 rounds, you'd then be able to put that in your rifle.

 

[harbl_the_cat]

Just like the pump action AR was a real hit... No full capacity mags for a manually operated action variant of an automatic have ever been approved. The RCMP will kill it with fire and the capitol investment will go down the drain along with the profits and overpriced, underwhelming straight pull variant of an otherwise cool, fun gun.

Why is that, though?

My thought is because it is generally considered a selling point in the US to advertise that a pistol or a bolt/lever/pump action long gun uses widely available, already existing magazines for a semi-auto and that the mags produced with the gun are cross compatible.

Up here, however, doing so indicates that the magazines are designed and manufactured for both - and that and that alone gets the magazines prohibited.

It seems pretty clear that if a manufacturer does NOT indicate that the magazines they produce are designed and manufactured for a SPECIFIC rifle, that is all that matters by the law (see the BX-25/Butler Creek 10/22 mag situation).

Do the RCMP approve what mags are prohibited, or is that defined in the Criminal Code and the RCMP interpret the criminal code and release special bulletin's of those interpretations?

Seriously, is the gun lobby playing checkers on the same board the RCMP and government is playing chess?

 

[harbl_the_cat]

If the exact same magazine fits both in a bolt action and a semi action firearm, the semi action firearm rules apply. Doesn't matter what if it was designed for a bolt action.

Thats life in Canada, live with it.

Come out with a cz858 semi automatic pistol, it would then have a magazine that would hold 10 rounds, you'd then be able to put that in your rifle.

The RCMP Special Bulletin on the subject suggest differently:

rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/bulletins/bus-ent/20110323-72-eng.htm

Note that the maximum permitted capacity of a magazine is determined by the physical characteristics of the firearm it is designed or manufactured for and the type of ammunition for which it is designed. The maximum permitted capacity of the magazine does not depend on the classification of the firearm, nor does the magazine capacity influence the classification of the firearm.

If you read that bulletin - the recurring theme is "Magazines designed or manufactured for use in both" is the key differentiating factor.

Doesn't matter if it's a rim fire rifle mag for a pistol, a pistol magazine in a semi-auto rifle, a center fire mag for a bolt action to a semi, or any mag of one caliber loaded with another caliber.

All that matters is: "designed or manufactured for"

Why do gun owners make up laws that don't exist, especially when there are hundreds of examples that contradict those non-existent laws?

 

[harbl_the_cat]

Another case - the Black Dog Machine, 10/22 50 round drum mag.

NOWHERE do they state these are designed and manufactured for the Charger pistol, but it's a 50 round, rimfire drum magazine that can be used in a pistol, by virtue of the fact that it's configurations are designed and manufactured for RIFLES only (AR-15's and 10/22's).

blackdogmachinellc.net/drum-10-22-50rd.aspx

 

[Rallix]

I have to agree with the rest of these posts concerning the law, even if a straight pull bolt version were to be created, the precedent has already been set due to the semi having come first. If the bolt action were to have first been created THEN the semi, I could see this working. You've just gotta be sure not to screw up like the CSR, where they said it uses AK mags, even though it's a bolty as far as I'm aware it's pinned to five since it uses mags from an auto loader.

I'm not willing to risk my 3D printer and myself for the sake of a magazine, not when the outcome is quite clear.

I'd abandon this notion of a bolty and look forward to the possibility of pistol mags.

Though, if the mag and mag well were made different from the CZ on this supposed bolty, I imagine that might work, then you'd just need a magwell conversion kit or something, but then I'd wonder whether or not such a device would be considered prohibited.

 

[electricjesus]

What you need to do is design a bolt-action that takes a 30 round mag that fits in only the bolt action.

And then a 858 mag adapter a year later.

 

[Corps]

Another case - the Black Dog Machine, 10/22 50 round drum mag.

NOWHERE do they state these are designed and manufactured for the Charger pistol, but it's a 50 round, rimfire drum magazine that can be used in a pistol, by virtue of the fact that it's configurations are designed and manufactured for RIFLES only (AR-15's and 10/22's).

blackdogmachinellc.net/drum-10-22-50rd.aspx

For someone with so many posts and feedback, you sure don't know much about your hobby.

The Charger came AFTER the 10/22. The BX 25 was pinned because Ruger went all: ''This right here is perfect for use in the Charger''. They also include one with the pistol, so that doesn't help.

By your logic, many .40 pistols here would basically be useless, since their mags would be banned because it so happens that you can also fit 9mm in them.