Need help identifying a rifle

Oilsands

Oilsands

Regular
Rating - 100%
29   0   0
Location
Alberta
So I have a rifle that I got off of my dad, who got it off a trapper in the north many years ago when fur trading was still strong. It is missing the bolt and would like to find out what make and other info I can on this rifle, a bonus would be some info on where one may be able to find parts for it as well.

So the only marking I see on it are 6.5mm, 647M. It has 2 triggers on it. It looks simular to a Italian Carcano, but after looking at many photos of the Italian Carcano I can not find one with the 2 triggers plus some do not look the same.

Here is a link to photos I have of the rifle
https://www.dropbox.com/sc/ahk583nt5651mnm/LJoIXMt8_P

Once my membership gets updated (newbie to supporter), I can post photos direct to the thread from what I understand. But till then I hope the link works for those who want to view and try and help me out.

Thanks again for any info you can give me.

Anthony
 
I agree with Mr E Moose - sporterized Carcano 6.5 x 54 - Had the same situation (but not as nice shape) but missing bolt - post it on equipment exchange - I was able to buy a bolt from a member - actually got a few extra parts to boot. There was a few others that had one as well. Personally, I'm looking for a stock for the same gun but haven't gotten around to posting in WTB. Good Luck!
 
Bases on the original 6.5x52 Mannlicher-Carcano round and the 6.5x54 Mannlicher-Schoenauer round are identical, so a standard Carcano bolt will work.

These are Italian World War One long rifles which were sold surplus, brought to Canada and reworked here by the H.W. Cooey Company in Toronto, on contract for the T. Eaton Company, the big mail-order house. The work was done in the middle-to-late 1920s/early 1930s, at which time the ONLY 6.5 ammunition available in Canada was for the MS rifle. It is LIKELY that these were rebuilt to handle the MS cartridge but I cannot say for sure. Something to work on this coming Winter, I guess.

One point: the 6,5 MS and 6,5 MC cartridges are VERY close in dimensions, so ammunition mix-ups are possible if you have both types in stock. I hav fired MS ammo in the shorter MC chamber without injury but I do NOT recommend the practice. As to the shorter MC round in the longer MS chamber, you should be good to go if the Extractor properly grips and HOLDS the cartridge against the face of the Bolt. The fabled MS cartridge actully is a weaker load than the generally-despised Italian round. Either is EXCELLENT in the bush, better than almost ANY modern round!

There is nothing wrong with these rifles but there ARE the most outrageous horror stories about them. I think much of the story had to do with firing the wrong ammo in the rifles, or else losing parts; there IS a tiny set-screw UNDER the action which is critical.

ANDY (on this forum) managed to set most of the horror tales to rest by firing one with progressively-higher overloads until he wrecked the rifle. They are MUCH stronger than the books tell you.

Usually, they are called an "Eaton's Carcano" or a "Cooey Carcano". They don't bring much money, but they will sure keep your freezer full if you know how to hunt.

Fresh Serbian-made reloading brass (Partizan) is available from Trade-Ex (link at the top of this page). RWS also makes it at 3 times the price but I don 't know anyone importing it.

Cooey Carcanos? I think they are fine!

Hope this helps.
 
You are going to need an enbloc clip for that as well.
One of the issues these rifles has is that when the last cartridge is stripped from the clip, the clip falls out through the bottom of the magazine well. A full enbloc is inserted from the top of the magazine with the bolt open.
A great design for a military rifle where ammo comes on clips, but not so good for a hunting rifle when you are down to your last clip and drop it tall grass, muddy water, or mud on the last round.

Now I have the urge to shoot mine.
 
Thanks for the info mellie.

mellie said:
I agree with Mr E Moose - sporterized Carcano 6.5 x 54 - Had the same situation (but not as nice shape) but missing bolt - post it on equipment exchange - I was able to buy a bolt from a member - actually got a few extra parts to boot. There was a few others that had one as well. Personally, I'm looking for a stock for the same gun but haven't gotten around to posting in WTB. Good Luck!
Click to expand...
 
Thanks for all the info and tips smellie. Does the mark in photo 3 (on the trigger guard) mean anything to you? Looks like an M and something else. Possible letting one know if it is the MC or MS?

smellie said:
Bases on the original 6.5x52 Mannlicher-Carcano round and the 6.5x54 Mannlicher-Schoenauer round are identical, so a standard Carcano bolt will work.

These are Italian World War One long rifles which were sold surplus, brought to Canada and reworked here by the H.W. Cooey Company in Toronto, on contract for the T. Eaton Company, the big mail-order house. The work was done in the middle-to-late 1920s/early 1930s, at which time the ONLY 6.5 ammunition available in Canada was for the MS rifle. It is LIKELY that these were rebuilt to handle the MS cartridge but I cannot say for sure. Something to work on this coming Winter, I guess.

One point: the 6,5 MS and 6,5 MC cartridges are VERY close in dimensions, so ammunition mix-ups are possible if you have both types in stock. I hav fired MS ammo in the shorter MC chamber without injury but I do NOT recommend the practice. As to the shorter MC round in the longer MS chamber, you should be good to go if the Extractor properly grips and HOLDS the cartridge against the face of the Bolt. The fabled MS cartridge actully is a weaker load than the generally-despised Italian round. Either is EXCELLENT in the bush, better than almost ANY modern round!

There is nothing wrong with these rifles but there ARE the most outrageous horror stories about them. I think much of the story had to do with firing the wrong ammo in the rifles, or else losing parts; there IS a tiny set-screw UNDER the action which is critical.

ANDY (on this forum) managed to set most of the horror tales to rest by firing one with progressively-higher overloads until he wrecked the rifle. They are MUCH stronger than the books tell you.

Usually, they are called an "Eaton's Carcano" or a "Cooey Carcano". They don't bring much money, but they will sure keep your freezer full if you know how to hunt.

Fresh Serbian-made reloading brass (Partizan) is available from Trade-Ex (link at the top of this page). RWS also makes it at 3 times the price but I don 't know anyone importing it.

Cooey Carcanos? I think they are fine!

Hope this helps.
Click to expand...
 
Thanks 10x, will be looking for one as well as the bolt.

10x said:
You are going to need an enbloc clip for that as well.
One of the issues these rifles has is that when the last cartridge is stripped from the clip, the clip falls out through the bottom of the magazine well. A full enbloc is inserted from the top of the magazine with the bolt open.
A great design for a military rifle where ammo comes on clips, but not so good for a hunting rifle when you are down to your last clip and drop it tall grass, muddy water, or mud on the last round.

Now I have the urge to shoot mine.
Click to expand...
 
I find that a strip of masking-tap across the bottom of the Magazine keeps me from losing those expensive clips. A folded-over TAB at one end aids in quick removal of Tape and Clip. JP on this forum has CLIPS; you can contact him at PS Militaria in Sherbrooke. Their website is pretty incredible.

When the empty clip drops out, you just shove a new one down into the magazine, make sure it latches (you will hear it click into place), bang the bolt forward and you're loaded.

A partially full clip may be ejected by opening the bolt, pushing down slightly on the top round with your thumb, and pushing forward on the CLIP RELEASE (inside the front of the Triggerguard), then allowing the Follower Spring to push the loaded clip vertically, up and out of the magazine. Very easy and very quick.

I don't know if that "M" is Cooey or original. The checkering is Cooey, as is the dual-set-trigger assembly. The Pistol-grip was made from chopped-off Fore-end wood from that rifle, which is why it matches so nicely. Cleaning-rod hole also was filled with wood from the original stock.

These are actually quite a nice, if somewhat minimal, factory conversion.

Apart from the horror stories, I have no idea why they are not more popular. I have 9 Carcanos altogether, including 2 Cooeys, and I am rather happy with them. Quick, fast, hard-hitting, very accurate, lightweight little rifles. Original military ones (except the Model 41) all have GAIN-TWIST rifling, hence should NEVER be shortened. The Cooeys have special Cooey rifling.

I have been handloading for my various Shorties with very fast powders (nothing slower than 3031) and the results are excellent. I load for the old Long rifles with 4895.

Hope this helps.
 
Hi Smellie - I seem to glean a new bit of info every time I read posts on the Carcano - the bit about the pistol grip makes total sense - I have one that wiggles a bit and I was trying to determine how they actually mounted it - obviously a pin and glue or something so I can glue back solid. Anyway, do you know if they sporterized these from one model in particular? So Cooey did the conversion in Canada? I read somewhere that they might have been reworked in Austria but that could have been part of the group that that beleived these will blow up in your hand just sitting there.
Thanks
 
Last edited:
smellie said:
I find that a strip of masking-tap across the bottom of the Magazine keeps me from losing those expensive clips. A folded-over TAB at one end aids in quick removal of Tape and Clip. JP on this forum has CLIPS; you can contact him at PS Militaria in Sherbrooke. Their website is pretty incredible.

When the empty clip drops out, you just shove a new one down into the magazine, make sure it latches (you will hear it click into place), bang the bolt forward and you're loaded.

A partially full clip may be ejected by opening the bolt, pushing down slightly on the top round with your thumb, and pushing forward on the CLIP RELEASE (inside the front of the Triggerguard), then allowing the Follower Spring to push the loaded clip vertically, up and out of the magazine. Very easy and very quick.

I don't know if that "M" is Cooey or original. The checkering is Cooey, as is the dual-set-trigger assembly. The Pistol-grip was made from chopped-off Fore-end wood from that rifle, which is why it matches so nicely. Cleaning-rod hole also was filled with wood from the original stock.

These are actually quite a nice, if somewhat minimal, factory conversion.

Apart from the horror stories, I have no idea why they are not more popular. I have 9 Carcanos altogether, including 2 Cooeys, and I am rather happy with them. Quick, fast, hard-hitting, very accurate, lightweight little rifles. Original military ones (except the Model 41) all have GAIN-TWIST rifling, hence should NEVER be shortened. The Cooeys have special Cooey rifling.

I have been handloading for my various Shorties with very fast powders (nothing slower than 3031) and the results are excellent. I load for the old Long rifles with 4895.

Hope this helps.
Click to expand...

Thanks again for the extra info and tips. I have a bolt coming (just need to get the headspace checked), will contact JP for the clips. If all checks out then to find the correct ammo and give her a try.
 
You will find darned few gunsmiths with gauges for th 6,5x54 MS cartridge, friend, OR for th 6,5x52 Carcano round.

One thing the Italians were very particular about was the fitting of the Bolt. It is MUCH more common to find a rifle with a TIGHT fitting Bolt than the reverse.

You CAN check it yourself and here's how: Take the rifle and a couple of shells out to the range. Load ONE round FROM THE MAGAZINE into the rifle, lock the Bolt down and then open the breech and pull the bolt HALFWAY back. If the Bolt is HOLDING the Cartridge, then you are safe to fire that ONE round. MAKE SURE that the Bolt is actually HOLDING the round. And it MUST chamber easily.

Fire the rifle. (I usually do this from the hip, just to be a bit safer.)

Extract the fired casing and carefully MEASURE from the midpoint of the Shoulder, to the Base of the fired casing. Now do the same with your other round.

If there is more than about .005" difference (with the fired case being LONGER), then you have a problem.

IF you have a problem, you have TWO alternatives: you can fit the Rifle to the Ammunition, or you can fit the Ammunition to the Rifle. The latter is MUCH cheaper and quite possible.

To fit the Ammunition to the Rifle, you carefully load and fire your whole box of shells, EACH TIME making SURE that the Bolt is HOLDING the cartridge. If the Bolt holds the cartridge, any expansion will be at the FRONT of the shoulder rather than at the BASE. It is expansion at the BASE which is dangerous. When you have finished off the box of shells, you take them home and reload them, setting your RESIZING DIE to JUST TOUCH the Shoulder. A thin SHIM between the Shellholder and the bottom of the DIE can be useful here.

Problem solved.

IF at some point your brass becomes tight to chamber, you can re-adjust your Sizing Die to push the Shoulder back 1 or 2 thousandths of an inch. The rest of the time, you just NECK-SIZE only. Lee makes a wonderfully-accurate thing called a COLLET DIE which performs this function admirably.

If your Bolt is too TIGHT, you can "shave" the top of your Shellholder a few thousandths to compensate. Just be sure to trim the Necks a like amount.

Hope this helps.

BTW, these were built from Italian "Fucile 91" rifles. The work was done in Toronto by Howard W. Cooey.
 
That is a VERY nice rifle if I do say so myself!!

I must say that what Smellie says is very true. I bought my first carcano earlier this year cause simply I had to see what all of the fuss was about. Well I will say that I really enjoy the 6.5x52 round, it has light recoil and hits hard.

I think I'm going to have to load up some rounds and have some fun with my carcano this weekend!!
 
Thanks for more information, always great and appreciated.
I will call a few places to see if the have the tools needed to do the checks.
I don't do my own reloads, so not an option for me at the moment.
Love all this learning.
 
Good $25 dial caliper is all you really need. Anything else likely you already have.

Princess Auto has them in stock, always.

Everybody is buying the electronic ones these days. The old-fashioned mechanical ones work when the batteries die!

Money put into GOOD tools is never money SPENT. It is an INVESTED. Big difference.

Far as reloading is concerned, it is a lot of fun all by itself. If you also happen to have something unusual, three times as much fun rolling your own. A decent basic set-up will cost you the price of 6 boxes of shells. I don't know how long the tools will last: I am still using the .303 dies I bought in 1964.

I have rifles here in 15 calibres that you can't buy at the local store. If I didn't load my own, I couldn't shoot ANY of them. PLUS: roll-your-own ammo is HALF the price of Factory AND it can be more accurate. Something to think on, perchance.
 
I do have a dial caliper already.

I agree on the reloading, plus sounds like part of the fun. Some day I will invest some cash and time into getting the tools and supplies, plus the learning how to. See there are some great videos on the internet about how to reload.
 
Also keep your eyes on garage sales - I just ran across an old timer getting out of it that had a good quality press, powder charger and a scale pretty cheap - luckily I had a set already passed on to me from another old timer and have started yet another fufilling hobby - having to work for a living is starting to get in the way.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom