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rudar said:
Thanks for all the advice, folks!

First off, I measured up last week's targets to calculate a more precise average for each group; I'm reporting the group size as the straight distance between the most extreme shots, and the height is the mean of measured heights (so, ignoring windage for this) of each shot. Standing off-hand at 50 yards, I had 10 shots covering 12", centered 2-3/4" low. A bit of a mix of sitting and kneeling at 100 yards, I had a total of 18 shots, covering 16", centered 2-3/4" low.

I was back at the range today, and found maybe one more change of posture that helped. I didn't mess around with my bench/sandbag shooting style at all, because I wanted to try a few different loads with a new hunting bullet. But for comparison, I shot a 5-shot group with my 'plinking' load; it gave a 1.5" group pretty much on zero at 100 yards. (Once I've got a load for hunting, I'll adjust the scope a bit to bring this up to 1-1/2 or 2" high).

Then, concentrating mostly on follow-through and paying closer attention to what I was doing, I tried some more off-hand:
Sitting without the bench, I managed a 9-1/4", 6 shot group about 2" low at 100 yards, and standing I managed an offhand, 3-shot group 6" across and 2-1/2" low. Slightly better (but, also, fewer shots in each group, so...), and still substantially lower than the bench.

Lastly I tried moving my weight way further forward so I felt more like I was leaning over the rifle a bit, the same way one does from the bench. Perhaps that's what Hunter on a Budget means; or if I misinterpreted his comment, this interpretation seems to have worked for me. With that weight shift, I shot a 3-shot group from sitting, 5" wide and only 1/2" low at 100 yards. And standing off-hand, I shot 6 rounds at 50 yards, 5-1/2" group 1/2" low. So that's starting to get pretty close to the same POI, and might be a big part of what I was doing 'wrong'. Granted those are also much fewer rounds per group, but I had bruised up my shoulder nice and good at swordfighting yesterday, so it's all I felt like shooting...

Thanks again for all the suggestions; just figured I'd come back and report some results :)
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It would seem to me that some people place way too much emphasis on their bench shooting and groups from the bench, with hunting rifles, and way too little importance on where their shots go from field and hunting positions. As I said before, you need to change the way you do things at the bench, to more closely match your actual field shooting POI, NOT the other way around !!!! You need to get your rifle shooting POA from your sitting, prone, kneeling and offhand positions and then change your technique on the bench to match. You must always bear in mind the primary purpose of the rifle, if it is a hunting rifle then POI must match POA from your field positions as well as changing your bench technique to match this POA/POI. If your rifle is a bench rifle only to be used off bags at the range then who gives a rats a$$ where it hits offhand, sitting etc. JMHO
 
10 X said:
I never touch the forend when bench shooting. I end up with fliers in all firearms. Shooting off hand I also do not touch forend but support the rifle at mag well and trigger guard. If I do my part and follow through and held well, point of aim is at same place as prone and kneeling with hunting rifles. This is always a different poi as off the bench. some guns are pronounced and some are very close to same poi depending on recoil of rifle as far as I can tell. Shooting match rifle sling in kneeling and prone my standing if I hold well is usually in the 9 ring high. I love to shoot at a 21" steel ram at 500M off hand wouldn't shoot at a live one at 150..... Long story short....bench is a great place to sort out gear and trigger issues, no place to sort out aim and hold issues.
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This method of offhand shooting is fine for light recoiling rifles such as is used for sillouette and is the same stance and hold I use when shooting rifle sillouette. But do take my advice on this and don't try this with a .470 NE or even a 340 Wby, the .470 will wrench itself completely out of your right hand and clatter across the floor and the 340 will leave you with your forehead forever tattooed with a pretty circular ring !!!
 
c-fbmi said:
This method of offhand shooting is fine for light recoiling rifles such as is used for sillouette and is the same stance and hold I use when shooting rifle sillouette. But do take my advice on this and don't try this with a .470 NE or even a 340 Wby, the .470 will wrench itself completely out of your right hand and clatter across the floor and the 340 will leave you with your forehead forever tattooed with a pretty circular ring !!!
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I worked up loads for my 470 from sitting off sticks. Even I'm not masochist enough to shoot it off bags!
 
c-fbmi said:
It would seem to me that some people place way too much emphasis on their bench shooting and groups from the bench, with hunting rifles, and way too little importance on where their shots go from field and hunting positions. As I said before, you need to change the way you do things at the bench, to more closely match your actual field shooting POI, NOT the other way around !!!! You need to get your rifle shooting POA from your sitting, prone, kneeling and offhand positions and then change your technique on the bench to match. You must always bear in mind the primary purpose of the rifle, if it is a hunting rifle then POI must match POA from your field positions as well as changing your bench technique to match this POA/POI. If your rifle is a bench rifle only to be used off bags at the range then who gives a rats a$$ where it hits offhand, sitting etc. JMHO
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Agreed in principle, but on the other hand a bit of googling seems to suggest that there are two 'accepted' off-hand shooting positions. And the more rear-weighted one is generally used in precise, slow, deliberate target shooting, while a more forward-weighted one has some advantages for faster field shooting, and where the target may not be perfectly lined up with one's foot positioning. So if the latter gives me decent groups, it may be the one I want to be practicing anyway, unless I'm reading teh intarwebs wrong?
 
medvedqc said:
come on ... not sitting on a bench with bags or lead sled for a 470 ......
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No lead sled, ever. I don't need to bust a stock off. If they boot too hard from the bench, do load development standing or sitting. I remember reading an article years ago about double rifles and it showed a man shooting a double from a "standing bench" whiel regulating it. It was quite the bench and made perfect sense. Later when I was finalizing the load development for my 416 Rigby I shot off a round hay bale standing on it's end. Worked like a hot damn though the vertically challenged among us will not find them quite as convenient.
 
rudar said:
Agreed in principle, but on the other hand a bit of googling seems to suggest that there are two 'accepted' off-hand shooting positions. And the more rear-weighted one is generally used in precise, slow, deliberate target shooting, while a more forward-weighted one has some advantages for faster field shooting, and where the target may not be perfectly lined up with one's foot positioning. So if the latter gives me decent groups, it may be the one I want to be practicing anyway, unless I'm reading teh intarwebs wrong?
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I have seen all kinds of off-hand positions used both in the field and in various shooting disciplines. I've seen shooters rest the stock on top of a clenched fist with their elbow against the body, I've seen a variation of that where the rifle is balanced on the first two fingers and the thumb and I even saw some people hold their off-hand parallel to the ground, bent at the elbow and their left hand gripping the trigger hand (it looks funky but works surprisingly well). But all those stances are garbage in a hunting situation or with anything more lively than a 308. Rifles behave differently based on how they are held, that is known, so when Douglas say that you need to ensure that your bench POI agrees with your field POI he's bang on. And if you're shooting a hunting rifle from a field position you want to be sure that your stance allows you to do that effectively. Practice the way you'll hunt and you'll never have a problem. You can only control some variables but you're well served to control them as best you can...enough things can go pear shaped in the bush!

I had a warthog jump out of an improbably small patch of grass and vape on me. The mount, swing and trigger press were 100% instinct. Had it not been for that damned mopane tree the tracking job would have been much shorter!
 
Well, recoil is just not my friend! The 30-06 in my Ruger No.1 A is my max tolerable hammer. I have shot the 300 wby mag, not so bad, 7mmRM, not so good! Not sure why! I just don't need a magnum cal for any reason. In fact, if anyone wants a Browning BLR lever action in 358 Win, I really don't have any reason to keep it anymore! I'm old, I won't be going moose hunting any more! Give me a PM ring, if interested. No, it ain't at a give-a-way price! I'll likely be asking for your left nut in the deal! So, don't get your hopes up high into the sky!
 
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