Swaging jacketed bullets?
- Thread starter scott585
- Start date
You're only talking swaging the bullets down about 9-10 thou so it should be doable. Lube the bullets with a good sizing lube like Imperial. A straight through sizing die like the Lee push through style should give satisfactory results. You might get a little 'spring back' if you are reducing the diameter that much so may have to run the bullets through twice.
Teh problem with this is, if hunting, you may change the performance characteristics as you force the jacket to a longer, thinner configuration. This would probably cause the core to "un-bond" or somehow separate fromt the jacket, causing it to break up, lack penetration, et.c.
for plinking, go for it, but for hunting? Not me.
for plinking, go for it, but for hunting? Not me.
handofzeus
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Trout Creekish Ontario.
Tried swaging .358 down to .351 for my old self-loader.....uneven sides at best. Usually peeled at least part of the jacket off though.
And no degradation of performance on an animal? Somewhere, I read an article on this very topic. Now have to find it.
Okay. I have a little more time this morning...
Several years ago, I looked hard at this bullet making method, trying to find the best approach to turning out decent bullets as inexpensively as I could and still maintain the jacketed ability to throw them at speeds close to 3000fps. So, some of my thoughts...for what they are worth...
To begin with, we have been using the incorrect terminology...
Swaging is the act of squeezing a bullet to increase it's size whereas, decreasing the diameter of a bullet is actually called "drawing down".
Because we are working with two di-similar metals, there is no actual molecular bond between the core and the jacket. Therefore, cold working of the metals acts differently on each. The lead, being the more ductile metal does not "spring back" to the same degree as the un-annealed copper jacket, therefore there MUST be a separation of the two components. Also, the worked metal has to go somewhere, where? Out the end of the jacket, then it needs to be trimmed off. Yet, you still have two separate pieces now, jacket and core no longer attached and chances are that the bullet is no longer symmetrical which will affect accuracy.
The best way to handle this Is to draw down the jacketed bullet SMALLER THAN THE DESIRED DIAMETER, then SWAGE IT BACK UP. This will cause the excess jacket material to flow into the base and the core material to properly fill the cavity and "bonding" will take place again. This would be very important in partitioned style bullets.
Hope this helps...
Several years ago, I looked hard at this bullet making method, trying to find the best approach to turning out decent bullets as inexpensively as I could and still maintain the jacketed ability to throw them at speeds close to 3000fps. So, some of my thoughts...for what they are worth...
To begin with, we have been using the incorrect terminology...
Swaging is the act of squeezing a bullet to increase it's size whereas, decreasing the diameter of a bullet is actually called "drawing down".
Because we are working with two di-similar metals, there is no actual molecular bond between the core and the jacket. Therefore, cold working of the metals acts differently on each. The lead, being the more ductile metal does not "spring back" to the same degree as the un-annealed copper jacket, therefore there MUST be a separation of the two components. Also, the worked metal has to go somewhere, where? Out the end of the jacket, then it needs to be trimmed off. Yet, you still have two separate pieces now, jacket and core no longer attached and chances are that the bullet is no longer symmetrical which will affect accuracy.
The best way to handle this Is to draw down the jacketed bullet SMALLER THAN THE DESIRED DIAMETER, then SWAGE IT BACK UP. This will cause the excess jacket material to flow into the base and the core material to properly fill the cavity and "bonding" will take place again. This would be very important in partitioned style bullets.
Hope this helps...
I swage 9.3 ( .366 ) down to .358 and they work fine. I use a lee bullet sizer and Imperial case wax. I have not noted any negatives. They work great. I just use a Pacific 007 press. Because of the force involved, I have to due it in stages, starting with the die only screwed in a few threads ( perhalp 4 or 5 ) and screwing the die down in stages . After I am pushing the bullets clean through, I run them through the die again.
A heavier press would probably speed this up as you could may be go in larger steps. I have considered a stouter press but have never actually needed one. I use a Co-ax for most of my reloading and use the pacific hen I need a more conventional press
A heavier press would probably speed this up as you could may be go in larger steps. I have considered a stouter press but have never actually needed one. I use a Co-ax for most of my reloading and use the pacific hen I need a more conventional press
404 error?
Fixed. My mobile device truncated the link.
http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/foru...-0-312-quot-0-314-quot-and-0-316-quot-Bullets
I need to point out that all of my Swaging experience comes from books. I have read extensively, because that's what I do before investing my money in it. Read Corbin's "Handbook of Bullet Swaging" online book, George Nonte touches it in his book, "Basic Handloading" and again discusses it is some detail in his book "Modern Handloading". Actual info on this subject seems to be scarce, except that it is a deep, dark, mysterious process since the pros want it kept secret so that you spend money on their processes.
While the actual process of drawing down a larger jacketed bullet is easy, numerous articles have cautioned that, without the final act of "re-swaging" a bullet to fix the core into the jacket again, performance will suffer. I.e., bullets will wobble, off centre and key holing result, cores separating completely when the bullet exits the muzzle, expansion may be insufficient due to the fact that you have redesigned the jacket, making it both longer and thicker at the base, etc.
Again, I know nothing of this from personal experience but it seems that if you want to use them for hunting, you will need to test them out extensively to determine performance capabilities, if you are just punching paper...then go hard!
Ted.
While the actual process of drawing down a larger jacketed bullet is easy, numerous articles have cautioned that, without the final act of "re-swaging" a bullet to fix the core into the jacket again, performance will suffer. I.e., bullets will wobble, off centre and key holing result, cores separating completely when the bullet exits the muzzle, expansion may be insufficient due to the fact that you have redesigned the jacket, making it both longer and thicker at the base, etc.
Again, I know nothing of this from personal experience but it seems that if you want to use them for hunting, you will need to test them out extensively to determine performance capabilities, if you are just punching paper...then go hard!
Ted.
90% of the people who use the term "swage" mean "draw down", I.e. Reduce in diameter.
When I do it, it's for use in milsurps to shoot at targets. If my process results in good accuracy, then it's good, regardless of "the rules".
Hunting bullets are another matter as discussed.
We need more curious people who try things like this.
When I do it, it's for use in milsurps to shoot at targets. If my process results in good accuracy, then it's good, regardless of "the rules".
Hunting bullets are another matter as discussed.
We need more curious people who try things like this.
For the Rook: Bullet Swaging definition: (Pronounced "Sway-jing", like "Gaging" or "Paging") Forming projectiles (bullets, not loaded cartridges) using high pressure instead of heat, to flow the materials at room temperature within a closed high-strength die. I believe this it what is occurring here.
Nope, actually pushing them through various re-sizing dies to make them smaller. While the press exerts high forces, no high pressure exists because the dies are open-ended.
Not my proper Corbin SWAGING dies (been doing this for over 30 years, not just reading about it)
I've squeezed (squoze/squozen?) down a number of bullets over the years when something wasn't available: Hornady 0.338" 250 grain RNSP & SP & Speer 250 grain SP to get a .318 Westley Richards (0.330") shooting again, using a no-longer available Z-Hat sizing die; Remington 8mm 220 gr. PSPCL down to 0.318" for an old J. P. Sauer 8x64J rifle using a custom reamed Lee cast bullet die; Hornady .0.358" 250 grain RNSP bullets for an old GECO Mauser in 9x57; as well as Norma 9.3mm 286 gr. PPDC bullets to 0.358" for a re-bored Holland & Holland that likes heavy bullets, after Hornady discontinued their 275 gr. bullets as Winchester had their 300 grain bullets, using a Lee cast bullet sizing die screwed into my Rockchucker & now my Lyman Orange CrusherII.
I found that as long as you made the reduction in a couple of passes (eg. 0.338 > 0.334 > 0.330) rather than trying to do the whole reduction in one pass, jacket separation, at least as far as I was able to ascertain, was negligible. At least they worked fine for a couple of Grande Prairie moose; I never got lucky (?) enough to try them on a grizz when I lived there.
Accuracy was minute of moose (~3" @ 100 yds.) which I thought was sufficient/satisfactory, given two of the rifles' cordite-frosted bores and the lack of original, correctly-sized bullets I had to compare them to, as Frenchies/Barotto (now Wholesale Sports) & Guncraft were both out of Barnes Originals +/or Norma bullets every time I got down to Calgary.
I've tried a number of lubricants (including Imperial sizing die wax, STP, and a few I can no longer remember), but settled on Lee Liquid Alox (which has to be washed from the sized bullets afterwards in naptha gas; Varsol left a slippery/greasy feeling on the bullets) which I coat the bullets with in the same manner Lee recommends for cast bullets.
I do believe, however, that swaging bullets (ie. bumping them up) would be a better way to go, at least insofar as hunting bullets are concerned. When I came into 2,000 .308" 200 gr. Dominion RN KKSP bullets I spoke with Dave at Corbin's about getting a die set made, in order to bump them up to 0.314" for a couple of Lee Speed rifles sighted for the MK VI cartridge, but decided it would not be worth it, given the cost of the dies & press, versus the price of that many SR Custom 200 gr. 0.314" bullets at the time, so wound up selling them to a fellow CGN'er who tells me they work great, as is, for Alberta moose in his .308 Winchester.
The only time I think it would be worthwhile to do it nowadays, unless the component shortage gets really bad, would be for hard-to-find bullets, such as for a heavy bullet .358" (think 286 grain 9.3mm bullets), if a cast bullet will not work for your purpose. Of course, if it gets really bad, then we'll also have to make our own BP & remanufacture primers too, in addition to casting our own bullets!
First the fish fly hatch, then the male mosquito hatch, then a number of cold fronts moving in (+3 C last night!!!); just can't catch a break for fishing! At least all of the rain & cold keep the forest fires down and I've only had to use a wee bit of my remaining stash of army mosquito repellant/bolt remover/fire starter/ plastic melter so far this summer. Too wet to head out to the range either. At least there's a good crop of blueberries & pin cherries with which to flavour the Death Wine!
I found that as long as you made the reduction in a couple of passes (eg. 0.338 > 0.334 > 0.330) rather than trying to do the whole reduction in one pass, jacket separation, at least as far as I was able to ascertain, was negligible. At least they worked fine for a couple of Grande Prairie moose; I never got lucky (?) enough to try them on a grizz when I lived there.
Accuracy was minute of moose (~3" @ 100 yds.) which I thought was sufficient/satisfactory, given two of the rifles' cordite-frosted bores and the lack of original, correctly-sized bullets I had to compare them to, as Frenchies/Barotto (now Wholesale Sports) & Guncraft were both out of Barnes Originals +/or Norma bullets every time I got down to Calgary.
I've tried a number of lubricants (including Imperial sizing die wax, STP, and a few I can no longer remember), but settled on Lee Liquid Alox (which has to be washed from the sized bullets afterwards in naptha gas; Varsol left a slippery/greasy feeling on the bullets) which I coat the bullets with in the same manner Lee recommends for cast bullets.
I do believe, however, that swaging bullets (ie. bumping them up) would be a better way to go, at least insofar as hunting bullets are concerned. When I came into 2,000 .308" 200 gr. Dominion RN KKSP bullets I spoke with Dave at Corbin's about getting a die set made, in order to bump them up to 0.314" for a couple of Lee Speed rifles sighted for the MK VI cartridge, but decided it would not be worth it, given the cost of the dies & press, versus the price of that many SR Custom 200 gr. 0.314" bullets at the time, so wound up selling them to a fellow CGN'er who tells me they work great, as is, for Alberta moose in his .308 Winchester.
The only time I think it would be worthwhile to do it nowadays, unless the component shortage gets really bad, would be for hard-to-find bullets, such as for a heavy bullet .358" (think 286 grain 9.3mm bullets), if a cast bullet will not work for your purpose. Of course, if it gets really bad, then we'll also have to make our own BP & remanufacture primers too, in addition to casting our own bullets!
First the fish fly hatch, then the male mosquito hatch, then a number of cold fronts moving in (+3 C last night!!!); just can't catch a break for fishing! At least all of the rain & cold keep the forest fires down and I've only had to use a wee bit of my remaining stash of army mosquito repellant/bolt remover/fire starter/ plastic melter so far this summer. Too wet to head out to the range either. At least there's a good crop of blueberries & pin cherries with which to flavour the Death Wine!
