Finally got a lathe

[BCRider]

Don't be too worried about levelling it, you won't ever notice a difference, just make sure all adjustment screws are snug too the floor

Sorry but this is extremely bad advice. If the bed isn't aligned along it's length in both elevation and twist then longer cuts will end up tapered instead of cylindrical.

With the stand and lathe as shown I'd bolt the stand to the floor securely to aid in damping out vibration and then look at checking and shimming the bed and head stock mounts where it connects to the stand to align the lathe.

The reason the precision level is used for this sort of work to at least get things close is because working to a level is easier than trying to align the machine than by any other method. Being LEVEL per se isn't required. But being aligned so the bed is straight and has no twist IS required.

Besides, when was the last time any of us ever saw a truly flat floor to the sort of standards that is required for a machine such as a metal lathe? If you all answered "never" then you said the right thing.

 

[Moose Masher]

In my opinion, if you are new to machining, learning to grind your own HSS bits helps a novice have a better understanding of what works where.
Get a good handle on HSS, and why certain angles work, then move to carbides.


* I am a novice myself, and by no means a proffesional. I do however, have an excellent teacher.*

 

[SND]

When it comes to boring bars you don't have much choice other than carbide inserted ones, I use mainly just solid carbide bars but then they're justifiable.
Main thing is to set it up so you don't end up with a bunch of different inserts, a decent TCMT turning tool and a boring bar that takes the same inserts is usually fairly cost effective, not the ideal shape for everything but gets it done.

To me a DRO is a must have, doesn't matter if you only make 1 part, its the most useful thing you can have on a machine.
I see you have a QCTP, make sure you dial it in with the cross slide(touching it to the end of the part and thinking "it looks straight" doesn't "cut it"), unless there's a special event that requires it to be otherwise.

If you try to part off something on those smaller machines, be very careful, and use the tailstock for extra rigidity and vibration dampening.

Make sure the half-nut will disengage under load. Thankfully you have a brake, very handy for threading.

Enjoy but always be very careful, machining can be a great hobby.

 

[Aries-]

Don't be too worried about levelling it, you won't ever notice a difference, just make sure all adjustment screws are snug too the floor

for someone claiming to be a machinist, you give some crummy advice. having the lathe not level can cause some big issues be it oddly tapered barrels being profiled. to uneven wear on the ways, to possible jamming because of pressure.

stick to machining if that is what you are good at. let others do the set up of machines.

as for your later post about HSS. carbide has its place for heavy cuts etc. hss also has its place for very nice finishes if you know how to grind a tool. with carbide unless you have the proper grinding stone you are stuck with what you have which isnt always the best for what you are doing.

 

[asa]

when I set my lathe (14 x 40 ) and mill up in my garage I made a 2.5" angle iron frame ,inside this I welded cross braces and attached studs to match my mounting holes. Once I postioned my frame I attached to the garage floor with 3/8 anchor bolts (12) for the lathe. Do to the slope of the garage floor I could only fill to approx 2" mark with concrete once this cured i mixed up a batch of self leveling material and poured it on top the concrete once everything cured I installed the machine did the final adjustments with a machinist level and shims. I have been more then happy with the results , the only draw back is I had to make a platform out of 2 x4 and plywood for me to stand on. Thanks

 

[asa]

One other thing I wanted to mention when I got my stuff I was getting instructions and advice from a machinist and the one thing that he told me that really stuck in my mind was if you do not set up correctly and just set in the garage and start using the machine, the chances that you will go back at a later date to setup correctly are likely fairly slim for most people they will just keep using as is.

 

[tiriaq]

My Standard Modern came with multiple pads under the head and tail pedestals. These feet are screw adjustable. I used my machinist's level, and these pads to get the lathe set up nicely. Then I remembered that I had not finished the electrical work behind the headstock, had to move the lathe, finish the wiring, return it to its final resting place, and then re-level it.
As mentioned, do it right, don't be in a hurry.

 

[wood800]

for someone claiming to be a machinist, you give some crummy advice. having the lathe not level can cause some big issues be it oddly tapered barrels being profiled. to uneven wear on the ways, to possible jamming because of pressure.

stick to machining if that is what you are good at. let others do the set up of machines.

as for your later post about HSS. carbide has its place for heavy cuts etc. hss also has its place for very nice finishes if you know how to grind a tool. with carbide unless you have the proper grinding stone you are stuck with what you have which isnt always the best for what you are doing.

Whatever , I have a manual and cnc lathe
In my shop with just quick level job and they both cut fine, you armchair machinists make me laugh. No way a lathe bed will twist, there is a reason they are built with cast iron , unless it's over 10 feet long, average lathes you will find in home shops are very rigid

 

[trevj]

Whatever , I have a manual and cnc lathe
In my shop with just quick level job and they both cut fine, you armchair machinists make me laugh. No way a lathe bed will twist, there is a reason they are built with cast iron , unless it's over 10 feet long, average lathes you will find in home shops are very rigid

I'm of the opinion that a precision leveling job is like as not, time wasted. Most, if not all, lathes will sit near enough to straight, as to make no difference to a fellow making gun parts, and leveling the lathe so that the chip pan drains correctly is about the extent of the requirement.

If the lathe is twisted enough that barrel profiles start getting oddly tapered, per the comment above, there are far bigger twists in the bed than a precision level will fix.

You can bolt the lathe feet to a wall, for all that level matters. But then the chips will fall upon the floor, and that would not be very helpful.

If the floor is solid enough that there is no movement, then the bed can be adjusted by cranking up or down the legs. The amount of change that can be implemented this way can be measured, but most will not see the difference by eye. The two collars method of alignment is used to check the bed twist, to allow some accuracy in the parallelism of the cut.

For the most part, it is not the biggest thing a guy new to lathe work should be getting tied in knots over. The lathe bed is stiff, even the cheap little Chinese benchtop ones.

And, it is worth noting, nobody around here (OK, for the most part, as I can think of one, at least) is like to be making parts that need to meet specifications off a blueprint from NASA.

A lathe plonked onto the floor, with the legs adjusted to sit evenly, is going to do far better work than many new users will be led to believe.

But not until the guy running it has put his time in and learned how to use it.

Aligned, trumps level.

A point too ponder. How much time do y'all figure that low paid Chinese labor, put in to precision leveling the castings on the grinder they ground the ways of the lathe on? How long did they let the castings stress relieve in the yard before they machined them?
Precision leveling is predicated on the assumption that the bed was carefully leveled and made to the same or higher precision than the leveling process that is being followed. Think on that, and how likely it is to have happened in the making of a budget Chinese lathe, eh.

Set it up, adjust as required to get a reasonably parallel cut, and go to town on it. You can learn about running a lathe by reading about it or talking about it, but you will only learn how to do it, by doing it!

Cheers
Trev

 

[BCRider]

Whatever , I have a manual and cnc lathe
In my shop with just quick level job and they both cut fine, you armchair machinists make me laugh. No way a lathe bed will twist, there is a reason they are built with cast iron , unless it's over 10 feet long, average lathes you will find in home shops are very rigid

Apparently back in the 1890 or so Paris Technology Exposition there was a hunk of 24 inch deep I beam with a sensitive dial indicator situated in contact. A sign indicated that women should come up to the beam and press on it and see the dial move to show their husbands how strong they were that they could flex a massive beam of this sort.

Steel moves, cast iron moves. Lathe beds twist and flex. Not much granted, but metal is elastic by nature. And when we're working in dimensions when fractions of a thousandth of an inch matter then the amount that a bed can twist or flex matters very much.

Truth is that just tossing a lathe and stand on a bad floor can easily result in runouts over a foot of turning that amount to .003 to .005 due to twists in the bed just from the machine's own weight. If you can't appreciate this then you're more an operator than a machinist.

Trev, given your other posts I'm a little shocked that you don't see the need and wisdom in a proper setup. Or is it a case of you appreciate "aligned" over level? Certainly one is needed and the other is fairy dust that simply leads to the first.

My own lathe in the previous shop was just "stuck on the stand" and I was constantly reminded that it was not correctly aligned. Even running a 4 to 5 inch long parallel cut that needed to be precise resulted in my having to turn in the cross slide dial a half thou every inch and then file the results carefully to remove the steps. I am SOOOOO looking forward to getting the lathe set up at the new house in a month or so with mortared cinder block end pedestals and "J" bolts made from 1/2 inch threaded rod cast in concrete so I can sit the lathe down on adjustment nuts and correctly align/level the machine finally.

 

[wood800]

I'm far from an operator as I own my own machine shop, and I douth you can work too fractions of a thousandths of an inch, Like the other guy said you guys are not making parts for NASA, I've machined gears for the mars rover, so I got parts I made on mars

 

[Marcel B.]

You guys are scaring the crap out of me.

Chinese 10 x 22 lathe? Yep, looks like I will be gifted one, new, never used.

I have done a fair amount of decent machining including very specific tapers, but have only set up two 10 foot shears to specs.

I'll do my homework.

Decent info here, I am totally into it!

Thanks guys!

 

[SkytopBrewster]

Got it as level as I could for now, dont have proper level yet. Just been playing, got some 1'' 4140 to pizz around with, did my first practice muzzle brake today, threads were a tad sloppy but will keep practicing on scrap before even thinking about touching one of my guns. Also mage a couple hitch pins for the truck. Still need a fishtail for threads. Bought a bunch of brazed carbide bits today and some HSS blanks at EMS tools. Overall happy with the lathe so far, it only takes about 2 minutes to change gears for different threads.

[/IMG]\\

Was going to order one of those GTR action trueing fixtures for aligning barrels in the 4 jaw from PTG, anyone use that fixture, how do you like it? I think it's like $250

 

[gagreflex]

Truth is that just tossing a lathe and stand on a bad floor can easily result in runouts over a foot of turning that amount to .003 to .005 due to twists in the bed just from the machine's own weight. If you can't appreciate this then you're more an operator than a machinist.

I agree with you BCRider. Getting a machine level is the best way to avoid twist and make sure you have even pressure and contact with the ground.

Handicapping a new user by telling him it's not important is ridiculous IMO. It's in his best interest to take as many variables out of the equation as possible.

This would also apply to the professional too.

Get a spirit lever and get the machine as level as possible. Check the level in a few months after the machine has settled.

There is no downside to getting it level except for the time.

Also, DO NOT get machining tips from youtube. 99.9% of the videos are done by hacks who have no clue.

Good luck with your new purchase!

 

[BCRider]

As I THINK trev suggested it's not so much about leveling the machine as it is about ensuring that the bed is flat with no twist. It really doesn't matter if the machine is tilted as long as the bed is flat and untwisted. It's just that a precision level is one way to get pretty darn close to accurately aligned that everyone understands.

There are some tests that I read about in a book some years back. One of them involved using a fairly large, hence very stiff, bar or thick wall tube. The idea is to hog out a low spot between the half inch right by the jaws and the last half inch at the end farthest from the jaws. Then you take a light cut over the two larger "collars" and mic the cuts. If they are the same diameter you have a flat and true bed. If they are not the same then it indicates a twisted bed which needs a little tweaking.

There were other similar tests that use cuts like this and mics and dial indicators to similarly check that the tail stock is centered both side to side and in height.

There's some great books out there for the beginner machinists. I believe it may be possible to find Southbend's "How to Run a Lathe" as a free download. Another which I found to be chocked full of great stuff is Sparey's "The Amatuer's Lathe" which is an old MAP production and I believe is available from Amazon.

It's also worth checking the local public library for books of this sort.

 

[trevj]

Trev, given your other posts I'm a little shocked that you don't see the need and wisdom in a proper setup. Or is it a case of you appreciate "aligned" over level? Certainly one is needed and the other is fairy dust that simply leads to the first.

I said that aligned trumps level.

Level, quite simply, is only proof of being level. Aligned, is what provides the accuracy required in use.

It takes a special kind of stupid, to smack a precision level on to a lathe that is cutting accurately, and crank it around, simply because it needs to be "Level". Nope. I've seen it done, and had to spend a bunch of time getting it aligned again.

Yeah. Lathes twist. The user decides whether the mount is within or without, the limits of what can be accepted for the work being done.
With sensitive enough measuring equipment, you can measure the amount of change you get from resting your hand on the headstock, vs. not, or whether the guy standing in front of the lathe is a fat f### or a skinny one.

It comes down to filling the need.

The longest part in a gun is what? Aside from the barrel, which, face it, the outside of the barrel isn't going to be checked over with a micrometer, esp. not after it gets filed or sandpapered for finish, before bluing or bead blasting, where if it were 15 thou larger at one end than the other than it was supposed to be (5 thou per foot taper, x 3 feet, a really long barrel). The problem is...?
People will look at the finish, not the taper. And the threaded portion of a barrel is...about an inch long. so....0.005 of an inch (five thou, of the afore-mentioned 5 thou per foot taper, divided by 12, the number of inches in a foot, is 0.000416 of an inch.

If you are a gunsmith working at a level that you need worry about 4 tenths of a thou taper in a thread, you probably have the knowledge to fix the problem, eh?

It's a tempest inna teapot. Much wind and noise, that mostly leads the FNG to believe that there must be dark art and strange ceremony involved. 'Taint so!

Guys making gun screws and fitting barrels are not in need of the same things guys making production tooling or gauges.

When the guy that is using the lathe gets enough experience that he can actually tell when the equipment is not able to provide, he is, like as not, going to have the experience that he is going to need to be able to adjudge his own needs as well.

Cheers
Trev

 

[trevj]

I agree with you BCRider. Getting a machine level is the best way to avoid twist and make sure you have even pressure and contact with the ground.

Handicapping a new user by telling him it's not important is ridiculous IMO. It's in his best interest to take as many variables out of the equation as possible.

This would also apply to the professional too.

Get a spirit lever and get the machine as level as possible. Check the level in a few months after the machine has settled.

There is no downside to getting it level except for the time.

Also, DO NOT get machining tips from youtube. 99.9% of the videos are done by hacks who have no clue.

Good luck with your new purchase!

The biggest variable, is the guy standing in front of the machine.

Much like the videos on youtube mostly being hacks (but hey, they are hacks with video cameras!), the information on the web, especially the information provided by the wise and all knowing 'experienced' machinists, has been mostly self serving hooey that makes it all out to be harder looking than it really is. It amounts to an overload of details that cannot be met, piled one on another to make it all that much harder to get started. It is not necessary.

Fawwkkk! Guys are so bloody scared of grinding tools that they won't try, and so scared of cutting threads that they won't try, and so scared of... and another dude does not get involved in the hobby.

It's sorta like telling guy he cannot join the gun club unless he owns and is able to shoot one each of every type of firearm, and...and..and.... It's daunting! It need not be so!

It's a hobby fercrisake! It's supposed to be fun, eh?

The needs are different, than if yer building NASA parts. NASA at least provides written tolerances!

Cheers
Trev

 

[trevj]

Got it as level as I could for now, dont have proper level yet. Just been playing, got some 1'' 4140 to pizz around with, did my first practice muzzle brake today, threads were a tad sloppy but will keep practicing on scrap before even thinking about touching one of my guns. Also mage a couple hitch pins for the truck. Still need a fishtail for threads. Bought a bunch of brazed carbide bits today and some HSS blanks at EMS tools. Overall happy with the lathe so far, it only takes about 2 minutes to change gears for different threads.

[/IMG]\\

Was going to order one of those GTR action trueing fixtures for aligning barrels in the 4 jaw from PTG, anyone use that fixture, how do you like it? I think it's like $250

Looks good!

Truing fixture? Can you make money with it? If not, make one. Make two or three until you get one you are happy with. The experience will do you good, as will having a tool that you made from a buck or two worth of stock, esp. if you never use it after the first time.

Kinda a toss-up.

Cheers
Trev

 

[BCRider]

Trev, thanks. Your last couple of posts has more than restored my faith....

And yeah, the key is to TRY stuff. That's how we learn. It seems like today's folks are conditioned to believe that they SHOULD be able to succeed at their first attempts at anything. So the least little self doubt and they dump it all in a heap and walk away when all they need is to look at what they did or didn't do and think and try something a little different.

Part of the bigger enjoyment of tools such as a lathe as a hobby is the joy in making a lot of our own tooling. Looking at the GTR website if it's the big tubular jig for holding the receiver then this is something you could make fairly easily. You then need to know enough about setup to understand what it's doing and how to set your receiver in the jig and why it might work better than some other options for holding your receiver for machining. As Trev says above the more you use the lathe and THINK about the results you get the quicker you'll realize and understand about the small stuff which leads you to being able to test for and work to results involving a fraction of a thou and seconds of angle.

Here are a couple of projects to consider as starting points. The work on these was all done with only my metal bandsaw to cut the stock from bar and a drill press to drill out the center bolt hole. All the rest of the work was done in the lathe itself.





And a handy bit of tooling I did to let me more easily see how deep I was drilling with my tail stock. There's two little 1/4 round super magnets epoxied into the aluminium pieces. They work well even with some stainless rulers. And best of all you always have a parking place for a handy 6 inch rule The movable indicator is a short piece of 90 extruded aluminium angle.

 

[tiriaq]

Knurling hint - try one of the clamp type knurling tools. These put waaay less strain on a lathe than the ones that you have to press against the work.