9mm Cases - Some Fit Some Don't - What Am I Doing Wrong??

waynewjw

waynewjw

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So I'm starting to work up some loads for my Para. I've got about 700 cases, tumbled, FL resized using RCBS carbide dies, case mouth flared to fit bullet, powder loaded, bullet seated and taper crimped. This is only the 2nd time I've reloaded for pistol so not exactly a pro regards the process.

After doing a number of dummy rounds in different OAL's, some drop in and out of the barrel, others don't?? Working backwards thru the process, I'm back at the cases. All the same length, all FL resized. A lot of the empty cases drop in and fall out of the barrel, others don't.

Why??? Where is the process going sideways?

Last night I started again, FL resized, primed, flared case to accept bullet, ready to go. Oh, and all of theses cases dropped in and out of the barrel. What's my next step? I want to get this right!
 
what bullet type/weight are you using?

how many different OAL's did you do and which ones didn't fit? if it was the longer ones, then the bullet ogive is hitting your rifling, and thus to long.
 
Hey there..

From my understanding you are attempting to drop a flared case into a barrel chamber. In my opinion you should only try and fit the completed bullet into the barrel as the flare will get in the way.. especially if the cases are different lengths..

If you are trying to fit a completed bullet into your barrel... then the problem is OAL!... some of your bullets are just too long and the projectile is touching the rifling of the barrel causing it to jam. Because not all your bullets jam you are right on the cusp of the correct OAL. I would shorten my OAL by 5 thou and try again. and keep doing so (shortening your OAL) until all your produced bullets will chamber. Be careful that you are not going too short.. check the sammi specs in a reloading book and don't go shorter than this... good luck

RDG
 
I understand, but why is it that the empty cases don't fit and when processed as they should including a variety of taper crimps with OAL's of 1.1, 1.25, & 1.35, they still don't drop in and fall out. The empty cases that fit also fit as dummies in all the OAL's. The empties that didn't fit at the start, didn't fit at the end as dummies? PITA
 
Spawn-Inc said:
what bullet type/weight are you using?

how many different OAL's did you do and which ones didn't fit? if it was the longer ones, then the bullet ogive is hitting your rifling, and thus to long.
Click to expand...

^This. Maximum OAL for 9mm is 1.169; NATO spec is 1.15. You may have to go slightly shorter depending on bullet type and shape.
 
Haven't mic'd, but will. From my visual and intuition I'm thinking the bases are bulged. So why are they be re-formed properly when put thru the FL die?

I'm using 115 gr. CamPro bullets. Have some 124's and 147's, but I figure if I can't get these to size and fit right, there's no sense in moving on.

I've also separated the bullet seating and taper crimp into two separate steps. Size the dummies first, in the above lengths and then set up the taper crimp. So the rub is that the cases that drop into the pistol barrel to start with do so at the end of the process. Those that didn't to begin with, still don't fit, even when FL re-sized. As above, I think the bulge at the base is there to begin with and the FL re-size doesn't cure the problem.

As a side, not all of the brass was fired from my pistol, some of it was guys at the range giving me their once shot factory brass. I'm starting to wonder if the fire-formed brass from other 9's may be the issue, and that I should sit down once more with barrel in hand, drop in all the FL re-sized brass, and toss those that don't fit. What do you think?
 
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ah ok, This may be the same issue I had (if you go back in my blog archives you can find me calling myself an idiot for it :p).

When I had bulges in some cases (assuming your sizing die is set to be just a smudge above the shell plate) but not all it was caused by not belling the case enough. if you don't bell it enough when it is seated and crimped the bullet pushes on the case and causes a bulge at the base. try adding some more bell to your cases and see if that fixes the problem. sounds like the same problem and it did only happen on some cases, and I have no idea why
 
on the cases that didn't fit, were they fired in a glock? (you can tell by the primer strike. in this picture the case on the right was glock fired). if those don't fit there could be the bulging that is being talked about above.
 
ShooterReady.ca said:
ah ok, This may be the same issue I had (if you go back in my blog archives you can find me calling myself an idiot for it :p).

When I had bulges in some cases (assuming your sizing die is set to be just a smudge above the shell plate) but not all it was caused by not belling the case enough. if you don't bell it enough when it is seated and crimped the bullet pushes on the case and causes a bulge at the base. try adding some more bell to your cases and see if that fixes the problem. sounds like the same problem and it did only happen on some cases, and I have no idea why
Click to expand...

Well I tried adjusting the flare several times, each time turning the setting down 1/8 turn, that just didn't seem to make a diff.

Spawn-Inc "on the cases that didn't fit, were they fired in a glock? (you can tell by the primer strike. in this picture the case on the right was glock fired). if those don't fit there could be the bulging that is being talked about above".

Unfortunately, all are FL'd and primers tossed, so can't say if it was from a Glock or not. If they are from a Glock and/or still don't fit, do I toss?


As a re-do yesterday aft, I fitted 50 FL cases into the barrel that dropped out easily, tossed the ones that didn't fit back into my bucket of 700. Then primed, belled and set up just 2 dummies, both dropped in and out, no issue. I left it at that for the day. My plan today is to do a bunch of 5 case loads in 0.1 grain increments and perhaps 1.25 and 1.1 lengths and seat the bullets. Then reset the die to do the taper crimp with the initial 1/8 turn as recommended in the instructions. If it fits and falls out of the barrel I think I'm good. Except for the fact that some of the case mouths around the bullet still showed a gap, which leads me to think that my crimp isn't set properly, so I kept going at 1/8 turn til they were tight and dropped in and out.

It may well be that the Para has a tight throat and only likes ammo fire-formed in this particular pistol.

I didn't do the board test to see if the bullets went back into the case, will have to try a few once the crimp is set.
 
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There are three reasons that can cause your problem.

1. Bullets seated too long.
2. Taper crimp is causing the case to bulge. NOTE: A taper crimp does not crimp the bullet, it simply removes the case mouth flare and makes the case straight sided again. This "taper crimp" prevents the case mouth from hanging up during feeding only.
3. A bulge at the base of the case caused by firing the cartridge in a un-supportive chamber. (older Glock barrels)

The Lee "bulge buster die" die will not work on the 9mm because it is a tapered case.
(some reloaders have found a workaround for this problem)

How do I remove 9mm base bulge
http://www.reloadersnest.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=18867

9mm Luger and Bulge Buster
http://leeprecision.net/support/index.php?/Knowledgebase/Article/View/26/7/9mm-luger-and-bulge-buster
 
bigedp51 said:
There are three reasons that can cause your problem.

1. Bullets seated too long.
2. Taper crimp is causing the case to bulge. NOTE: A taper crimp does not crimp the bullet, it simply removes the case mouth flare and makes the case straight sided again. This "taper crimp" prevents the case mouth from hanging up during feeding only.
3. A bulge at the base of the case caused by firing the cartridge in a un-supportive chamber. (older Glock barrels)

The Lee "bulge buster die" die will not work on the 9mm because it is a tapered case.
(some reloaders have found a workaround for this problem)

How do I remove 9mm base bulge
http://www.reloadersnest.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=18867

9mm Luger and Bulge Buster
http://leeprecision.net/support/index.php?/Knowledgebase/Article/View/26/7/9mm-luger-and-bulge-buster
Click to expand...

I'm thinking it's not #1 - seated to long. I did some initial rounds at 1.22 and they fed o.k.
#3 could well be the main cause as I did get some range brass over the past months and didn't note what the firearm was, didn't think it would make a diff.
#2 also may be the cause, but I think less so.

My main puzzle in this equation, if that I have full length re-sized all of the brass in a RCBS carbide die. So why would some of them bulge? I then sorted through all 700 rounds and matched in length approx. 500, set the others aside. Never felt that a bulge would be an issue. So out of the 500 rounds, most fit my barrel, and some don't. It appears that the some that don't fit are the cause. Going to measure some of each and see what the diff is. So I'm off to load the 50 cases that all fit, and trust that they will fall in and out at the end of the process.
 
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waynewjw said:
I'm thinking it's not #1 - seated to long. I did some initial rounds at 1.22 and they fed o.k.
#3 could well be the main cause as I did get some range brass over the past months and didn't note what the firearm was, didn't think it would make a diff.
#2 also may be the cause, but I think less so.

My main puzzle in this equation, if that I have full length re-sized all of the brass in a RCBS carbide die. So why would some of them bulge? I then sorted through all 700 rounds and matched in length approx. 500, set the others aside. Never felt that a bulge would be an issue. So out of the 500 rounds, most fit my barrel, and some don't. It appears that the some that don't fit are the cause. Going to measure some of each and see what the diff is. So I'm off to load the 50 cases that all fit, and trust that they will fall in and out at the end of the process.
Click to expand...

standard dies do not reach the bottom of the cases, you can buy dies that do, i believe they are called small base dies which will resize the entire case. but most guns/chambers don't require that step.
 
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A carbide die does not size the cartridge case to the extractor grove and leaves the bulge.

Over crimping and especially seating and crimping in the same operation can cause the case to bulge.

You need to inspect and measure your fired cases (especially range pickup brass) and inspect and measure your loaded ammunition.

Below is a fired case that has not been resized resting in a 9mm case gauge, a case gauge is nothing more than a 9mm chamber made to minimum dimensions. The fired case below is too fat to fit in a minimum size chamber and has not dropped to the bottom of the gauge and rest on the mouth of the case.

cat002_zpsead02e9e.jpg


Below is a fully resized case resting fully "inside" the case gauge as it should after sizing and after it has been reloaded. This case does NOT have the infamous "Glock Bulge" at the base and fits in the gauge.

cat003_zps1524e737.jpg


I also check my loaded rounds in the gauge to make sure no case bulges happened during loading. You do not need to have one of these gauges if your only loading for one pistol, and you would just use your barrel as a gauge. I'm loading for several 9mm pistols so I use the gauge with it's minimum size chamber so "one size fits all".

Bottom line, measure your cases with a set of Vernier calipers and check for bulges, use your barrel as a gauge and better yet buy a case gauge and let it do all the work.
 
Spawn-Inc said:
standard dies do reach the bottom of the cases, you can buy dies that do, i believe they are called small base dies which will resize the entire case. but most guns/chambers don't require that step.
Click to expand...

Have you ever seen a small base die made for a 9mm pistol?

Did you read the links I provided on 9mm base bulge?

Do you have a four die set of Lee of Lee 9mm dies with the factory crimp die?

Did you read the posting where the person was using the factory crimp die to remove the case bulge?

I don't mean to be harsh, but you brought up an animal that doesn't exist in the 9mm world.
 
bigedp51 said:
Have you ever seen a small base die made for a 9mm pistol?

Did you read the links I provided on 9mm base bulge?

Do you have a four die set of Lee of Lee 9mm dies with the factory crimp die?

Did you read the posting where the person was using the factory crimp die to remove the case bulge?

I don't mean to be harsh, but you brought up an animal that doesn't exist in the 9mm world.
Click to expand...

i meant to say standard dies do NOT size the base of the case, and assumed they sell it for most calibres, but after looking they don't. my mistake.
 
Are u using plated bullets or FMJ?

If theyre plated the ogive and diameter of those bullets could vary quife a bit bringing it back to an OAL issue.

I have never had an issue with Glock brass in any 9mm and sized with carbide Lee dies. This is more of a .40 s&w issue from my experience.

As far as crimping and belling are concerned both should be done as minimally as possible. Just enough belling to sit a bullet on the case without help and so that it fits without issue. Crimping in a 9mm is only to get more reliable feeding and should only be taking away any left over evidence of the belling. Hell if belling is done right you shohldnt even need the crimp.
 
So I loaded up 45 rounds this aft. These were all of the cases that fit the barrel of my Para and also dropped out. Did 3 lengths - 1.15, 1.135 and 1.125 with 3 different powder charges. I used the 3rd die to seat all of the bullets first, then I set it up to tape crimp, meet the base, turn 1/8 and it did all but 2 rounds, they all dropped in and out of my Para barrel. Took one more 1/8 for the other two to fit.

So I'm thinking that I am just going to take a hour or so, with the Para barrel, and drop in all of the cleaned cases I've got once they been FL re-sized and not bother with the ones that don't fit. To much hassle, don't want to buy another die. I will get one of the case gauges, if the LGS ever gets some in stock.

Bigedp51, you have the distinct advantage of being south of the 49th, where all things guns are cheaper and available thru a multiple of sources. Here in Canada, at this point in time, there is a distinct shortage of many things related to reloading - powders, dies, components. I've been trying to find a Lee collet die for .270 caliber for the past 3 months and I'm still SOL.

At my next option is I'm just going to purchase a case of 9mm, which when fired will be fire-formed to my pistol and should be able to just simply some of the above.
 
BigEdP51 has given you some good advice.

I think that using a case gauge is a must. I use this one for 9mm: ht tp://www.midwayusa.com/product/595577/lyman-max-cartridge-gage-9mm-luger

As you can see they are not expensive. After sizing / depriming my brass I check it in the gauge. If it doesn't pass I check it for faults, (cracks, bulges etc.) If I don't find any faults I run it through the sizer again and see if that fixes it. If it doesn't then I put it in the bad brass pile.

I also use the gauge to check my cartridge after seating and crimping. If it is just a hair off I put those aside and run them through my Ruger P89DC which seems to digest anything without complaint. I have never had any that were more than a hair off but if I did I wouldn't use them.
 
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