Blackpowder Cartridge Rifle for CAS Long Range?

Tudenom

Tudenom

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Hey guys

Cowboy action typically has side matches including long range gong shooting and I figured it's time for me to get myself something that can reach out 500m. My little 357 mag 92 clone is very good and could probably hit a Ram at 300 metres but I doubt it would have the power to knock it over. I'd like to get something that isn't a typical Sharps rifle, so I'd like to get your opinion on the various options that are available.

My major concern is reloading these buggers as it seems that finding brass for anything not 45-70 is difficult.

P&S has some Martini Henry rifles that would be a major plus on the cool factor, but I'm really concerned about their bore quality and whether or not they can hit a Ram silhouette at 300m. Supposedly their sights are pretty crude. In an ideal world I'd find a rifle converted to 303 Brit or 45-70 with a good barrel and use black powder loads but finding one would be difficult.

Other options include a Snider rifle, but reloading that sucker sounds like a challenge. Supposedly you can use shortened 24 gauge shotgun shells with a 60 cal ball with 70 grains of black powder, but I don't know how far you could shoot a round ball like that without loosing a lot of accuracy.

A third option could be one of those Swedish rolling blocks in 8x58R. I bet the bore conditions on some of these rifles are pretty damn good. You can get brass for them but it's really expensive.

So what do you suggest? Are there other options that could work?

Thanks for the tips!

Eddy Blackwater
 
hickstick_10 said:
Buy an old springfield trapdoor, thats eather a parts gun or cutdown or refinished. They're cheaper that way for a shooter.
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That is the way to go. Especially if the bore is sharp and clean...you will out-shoot anything on the line, other then another Trapdoor.
There are hints about how to improve the accuracy of a 45-70 Springfield Trapdoor. If I recall it has been discussed in another thread here.
Dollar for dollar the Trapdoor is your best bet. Stay away from high priced boat oars, unless you love frustration and hate keeping your own money.
Once you have one...sight it in properly, then practice the long range stuff using the original sights...they work!!!
 
I have to concur with the TD recommendation, just would say that if possible find one with the Buffington sight. I have a TD with the 1879 sight and find it very hard to see them well. They must have been designed for 18 year old troopers.

Anybody I've talked to who has a TD with the Buffington rear raves about it.
 
Besides, don't black powder cartridge shoots require an external hammer gun, which eliminates the Martini?

Or is that not a concern with CAS and just specific to a certain discipline?
 
tbloggins said:
Besides, don't black powder cartridge shoots require an external hammer gun, which eliminates the Martini?

Or is that not a concern with CAS and just specific to a certain discipline?
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Nope, you're right. The CAS/SASS rules specifically call for external hammer guns for the long range matches. Even worse is that if the gun uses a magazine that it MUST be a tubular magazine. Winchester 1895's are not allowed for this reason.

So your love for Matini actions is sadly limited to plinking outside of the CAS/SASS environment.

I ended up with a Remington rolling block rifle. As an alternative to the Sharps it's a neat way to go and they tend to not cost an arm and a leg. Another VERY slick single shot action is the JMP designed Winchester 1885 High Wall falling block rifle.

I got to shoot a number of 45-70 Sharps and other options before I jumped in. I found that even medium loads in 45-70 shot from the heavy Sharps platform tend to slap the shoulder quite strongly. So when I tripped over a nice older rolling block in .38-55 I leaped into the deep end of the pool without any safety floaters..... :D Due to .38-55 having "evolved" throughout the years this has not been a smooth voyage. But if you can find a gun chambered in this round which has a chamber and bore in harmony it truly is a great round to shoot. It's most certainly sporty without being punishing and you could easily go to the range and pop off 50 in a day without your shoulder complaining in any way. And from what I saw and felt that is simply not something you can do with many 45-70's.

A bit of an orphan cartridge is something called a .40-65, or is it a .40-60? That one promises to be quite tolerable for longer and higher shot count sessions as well.
 
That Bertram brass is VERY pricey. But if you go with one of the lower cost rough bore rolling blocks from Tradex with the idea of swapping barrels and cartridge selection then it avoids the expensive brass issue.

One option would be to go with .30-30 chambered into a .308 bore barrel blank turned and profiled to fit your rifle. Or get the original barrel drilled and sleeved for something smaller and more available.
 
Several years ago, the cowboy action shooters challenged black powder cartridge shooters to a match, shooting at a roughly 12" square piece of steel at 135 yards. The single shot black powder shooters considerably outshot the cowboys because the single shot crowd shot sitting with cross sticks while all of the cowboy shooters shot standing offhand and rapid fire. Point I am trying to make is that you need to know what the criteria are for the competition you are competing in. The cowboy shooters in this case were far more concerned with speed than accuracy while the single shot shooters were more concerned with accuracy than speed. The informal rules allowed all shooters to shoot in whatever manner they chose, but on this occasion the cowboys mindset was on speed.
If you are shooting with lots of time but ranges of 200 yards and up, probably the easiest and cheapest route is a square post in front and a ladder style peep sight at the back and use a 6 o'clock hold. Double aperature gives potentially better accuracy but can be fussy with changes in target size and quick compensation for drop or wind.
Much as I like highwalls, a rolling block has far less inside to get crudded up with black powder fouling and allows a cleaning rod to be pushed through from the breach unlike the Martini. The Sharps is probably the easiest to strip and clean while keeping the lock mechanism completely separate from the fouling. Of the repeaters, a Marlin is probably the easiest to strip and wash out

cheers mooncoon
 
If you think the recoil from a 45-70 is not pleasant then you could do a lot worse than search out a rolling block in 38-55. Easy to maintain, only modest recoil and brass is readily available at reasonable cost. Be critical of the trigger pull for long range shooting.
 
Thanks for the tips guys :) The trapdoor is a really good suggestion that I hadn't thought of. As for the exposed hammer bit, mostly I'm going to be shooting around Prince George and Quesnel, maybe Williams Lake too. The crowd around here aren't too hung up on the rules so a rifle without a hammer would still be okay for the most part.

I agree with Moncoon, overall the emphasis is on speed with accuracy being second fiddle at CAS sanctioned matches. That's were a "rifle" shooter can dominate.

A rolling block in 38-55 would be a very nice set up!
 
Just thought I would mention that the rifles used by the American team at the original Creedmoor match were Remingtons.

Popular fiction has them as Sharps' rifles, but they were not. See the photographs.

Doesn't get a lot more authentic than a Remington.

Cheaper than an original .45-140 High Wall, too.
 
The International Match held at the famous Creedmoor Range on Long Island in 1874 pitted an American squad against a championship team from the Irish Rifle Association
The visiting team was outfitted with .45 caliber Rigby muzzle-loading match rifles built by Master Gunsmith John Rigby,
The American competitors used both Sharps and Remington .44 caliber breech-loading single-shot rifles

http://riflemansjournal.########.ca/2011/01/history-beginnings-of-international.html

http://www.nramuseum.org/the-museum...ps-model-1874-creedmoor-rifle-no-3-rifle.aspx
 
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The OP did not say he was wanting to save money.
Therefore a suggestion would be to start the shopping at Shiloh Sharps.
I did and no regrets...
Had to sell a few things was all.

With a BPCR rifle 500m is not long range.
800 - 1000 is.
There are shoots in the US done at 1 mile with these guns.
 
Tudenom said:
Thanks for the tips guys :) The trapdoor is a really good suggestion that I hadn't thought of. As for the exposed hammer bit, mostly I'm going to be shooting around Prince George and Quesnel, maybe Williams Lake too. The crowd around here aren't too hung up on the rules so a rifle without a hammer would still be okay for the most part.

I agree with Moncoon, overall the emphasis is on speed with accuracy being second fiddle at CAS sanctioned matches. That's were a "rifle" shooter can dominate.

A rolling block in 38-55 would be a very nice set up!
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Not realy true. Single shot & rifle cal. lever gun cowboy comps are very much a "slow fire" accuracy event. While some events are timed, the time is only to break a tie if two scores are the same. For that matter, the pistol cal. speed rifle comps are decided by # hits first and fastest time with the same amount of hits as the tiebreaker.

" You can't miss fast enough to win"
 
fingers284 said:
Not realy true. Single shot & rifle cal. lever gun cowboy comps are very much a "slow fire" accuracy event. While some events are timed, the time is only to break a tie if two scores are the same. For that matter, the pistol cal. speed rifle comps are decided by # hits first and fastest time with the same amount of hits as the tiebreaker.
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I won't argue with Fingers on the rules where he shoots, but I was struck by how all of the 4 or 5 cowboy shooters shot offhand and rapidly. I don't think any of them hit more than 2 out of 5 shots. The black powder shooters took much longer with scores of 3 to 5 hits out of 5 with several 5s.

Even though I don't consider it a good gun for long range shooting (200 yds and up) I have a trapdoor that I rebarreled to 38-55. It is a fun gun to shoot and with a Buffington sight could certainly give other shooters a run for their money. Minimal recoil and does well at our local turkey shoot where I loan it to shooters without a gun

cheers mooncoon
 
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