First 250 round with my new Tavor
- Thread starter pavmentsurfer
- Start date
Stormchaser
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
May I ask at what distance?
I believe standard issue since 2009 or something, of course the M16, and M4 platforms wont just disappear from their troops
OccasionallyOnTarget
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Burnaby, BC
Thanks for the thorough review.
No 2 of their line brigades are fully tavored up, golani and givati.
Golani against hezbolah in the lebanese war, givati agaisnt hamas in the gaza strip war
You know you're right, it must be because of the heated barrel, i get some really weird large groups after shooting a lot and i was at around 4 to 5 moa at 100 yards too. And its not because its dirty, the rifle action and barrel dont pick up much dirt. I'll try with the heavier bullets this friday with 3 5 shot groups in rapid succession.
Could be the trigger too, very hard to stay consistent with my trigger pull on that trigger.
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Stormchaser
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Right on! Nice job!
Thanks for a good review... i been sitting on the fence about purchasing this rifle... If you could only upgrade the trigger!
I got my new FDE Gen 2 Tavor today. It was brand new when I got it and, I was pleased to see that it came in the box with a cleaning kit, sling, mag and 2 sets of backup sights. (one integrated in the rail and another set ON the rail). I didnt even clean it before I installed my battlecomp 1.5 brake and 1-4 optic and took it out to the range. I thought id just post up my initial impressions of it. There seems to be lots of new Tavor owners recently... just like me and maybe some info could help.
First off, the carry case is really nice. Well made and fits the gun perfectly. Unfortunately it doesnt fit with any optic on it... but its not a huge deal considering it was essentially throw in for free. the sling is decent, i wont use it but if someone didnt have a sling already it would be totally usable. The cleaning kit is really nice. its got literally everything you could possibly need to clean the gun other than oil. The back up sights that are included on the rail are also very nice. not sure who makes them but theyre all metal and fell great to flip up and down. however, IMO they take up alot of room on the rail and they impeded the mounting of my optic so i took them off. As well... the integrated flip up sights in the rail are sweet. I dont know how useable they are but they sure are unique. Im sure theyd make as fine a back up sight as the ones included ON the rail anyway. I dont see why youd need 2. So I took the removable set off.
The gun itself is somewhat different than I thought it would be. I realize that for $3000 it should feel SOLID... but my experience with polymer rifles is that even the best ones have a plasticky feel to them. This one doesnt. There is no wiggling or gaps between the pieces. Everything fits like its made of steel. On the other hand, cycling action does have a bit of a muted plastic feel to it. It doesnt have the "snick-snick" feel that an all metal gun does. Thats really just semantics though as the gun itself works excellent and is tight. The finish on the FDE model is mostly even with a few lighter and darker areas. It looks clean when you take it out of the box but does discolour more easily because its lighter. Though the plastic seems to be impervious to stains so far. I just used brake clean and any discoloring came right off. I was surprised to see the charge handle is made of plastic and doesnt have a return spring to assist it forward once the action is locked back. Isnt an issue when your running the gun, the handle stays forward. But when your playing with it at home it seems like something isnt right. Dont worry about it. The top rail is metal and is connected directly to the barrel... so its SOLID. As I mentioned before the flip up sights are built in to the rail and actually have rail sections built into the top side of them... you can literally mount an optic directly on top of them. The mag release and bolt release are both solid in operation but feel a little bit light when you use them in the house. The cheek riser area is the perfect shape for use with a raised optic like I have. But I found your eye sits a bit high for use with the additional iron sights. IWI seems to have known this as the integrated sights are the perfect height.
I bought gen 3 Pmags and they fit perfect. They lock up tight and drop free. Ive had no issues feeding rounds from them. However, the included mag will NOT load 5 rounds. Its a really nice feeling mag, very sturdy and beefier than any other STANAG mag ive ever held. But the fact that it wont hold 5 makes it even more useless than the rest of my legal mags. I did run some LAR 10 round mags (coupled) and they fit and ran fine, dropped free no problem. Hopefully this helps anyone wondering about mag compatibility.
I didnt clean the gun at all before I ran it at the range. I just loaded it up and let 'er rip. I was running CHEAP norinco .223 and i ran 240 rounds without a single FTF, FTE or light strike. The ONLY issue I did have was once and while the bolt wouldnt lock back on the last round (always with the Pmags) and a full mag is very difficult to seat on a closed bolt (the Pmags I have are pinned to 5.5 so they shouldnt be a problem). I have to set the mag in the magwel and slam it in from the bottom. Not a huge issue and im hoping it resolves itself as I run the gun more.
Once you shoulder the Tavor you really see why this is a great setup. When you pick it up, its surprisingly heavy. But when you bring it up it just seems to get lighter. The weight seems to rest on your shoulder with nearly no weight on your trigger hand. I let 3 guys fire it and each said the same thing "man, this thing fits great and feels light". You might think this would make it more susceptible to muzzle rise, but with the battlecomp 1.5 installed that is not at all the case. The muzzle stays almost stationary and follow up shots are super quick and on target. I practiced mag after mag of double tap type shooting and at 25 yard the 2nd shot was always within 12 inches of the first. Maybe that doesnt seem great but keep in mind, this is my first day with the gun, no practice at all... ill get better and groups will get tighter.
Charging the gun feels fine. feels a bit disconnected. You can definitely feel that your pulling a long linkage. This can leave you wondering if it actually IS locked oped or a round IS in the chamber. I found after a while I just trusted that it was fine and it always was. But its hard not want to visually check it. I love the placement of the safety. Best one I've ever operated. I like that the natural motion is to turn the safety OFF... ive found with some guns the natural motion is to turn it on and the akward motion is to turn it off. Thats backward to me. it operates with a tactile "click". The bolt release is both a blessing and a curse. When you load a mag on an open bolt its literally the most natural thing to hit the release with your thumb. So thats excellent. BUT... there is really NO thought at all given to locking the bolt open by hand. You have to pull the lever down with your trigger hand, which is difficult as you pull the charge handle back with the other hand. You have to balance the gun on your shoulder at the same time. I lever on the side of the gun would have been smart. But, its the only thing I can see on the gun that is ergonomically incorrect. And its not something that ruins the experience for me. The mag release is pretty stiff. Im going to look at taking a coil or two off the spring. Its not a big deal but it seems overly stiff to me. Its ultra easy to operate with your left hand but im going to post a link to a video that illustrates, what I feel after running the gun, must be the best way to operate the mag release and the fastest way to change mags. Not sure if it was built this way or not, but it sure works good.
It took almost not time at all to get good with this method and, running side by side with my buddy who has an AR, mag changes were pretty much the same speed. I need more practice but this is a good system.
The trigger is pretty bad. Im not going to sugar coat it. Its REALLY heavy, notchy and not smooth. Im going to be reading and watching everything I can get my hands on that relate to improving the trigger on a tabor... I know it can be smoother. It can DEFINITELY be lighter... and if I can get it fixed up just a bit ill be fine with it. Its a trade off... if you like the balance of the gun, youll have to live with the trigger. If you dont care about the ergonomics of the gun, you wont be willing to live with the trigger. Simple as that.
I was impressed with the accuracy at 50 yards. I was too enthralled with the shooting I didnt think to take a pic of the groups I was shooting but with a 4X optic off a bag at 50 yard I was shooting 1 - 1.5 inch groups when I really took my time. The trigger is the biggest issue here. I think the gun is very accurate at 50 yards on its own but that super heavy trigger makes it difficult to achieve a smooth pull. I found it almost easier to pull the trigger fast and hard... wrong I know, but it almost seemed to provide better results. The ammo i was using is the cheapest crap you can get... so 1.5 inch groups (at best) is not bad and, if your using the gun in IDPA and 3 gun style competitions your rarely shooting at 50 yards and you only need to hit an 8 inch target so the accuracy is more than good enough for me.
My next step is to tear the gun down completely and clean it up big time. Ill post up some more impressions after that process. I have to say a big "thank you" to TVpresspass for his youtube videos. They have been supremely helpful.
Heres a few pics for now. Ill try to get some better ones and more detailed pics of the flip up sights and other small things when I get a bit more time.
Tonight I undertook an attempt at stripping the gun down. I like to at least know how to strip it down the the bare frame so I can see and understand how it all works. Needless to say, its not as easy as id hoped. General maintenance and cleaning is a breeze. But going any further than the bolt carrier group and the front hand grip gets more difficult. It seems the guid rod on the new versions can not be separated as suggested in most videos and even the manual. not a huge issue as this part is A: Very clean after 250 dirty rounds and B: Easy to clean when assembled. Just keep it in mind if you like me and watch videos to learn how to do stuff... the newer guns are not the same as the older ones.
Likewise, getting the charging handle assembly off was not going to happen for me. I tried everything and simply can not figure out how to do it. I watched TVpresspass's video like a dozen times and it seems his aftermarket top rail is just different enough that the assemble can slide out. Mine would not... at least not as easily as the youtube videos or the manual suggests. I gave up after about 30 minutes. Im not at all mechanically inept either. I can figure stuff out. This, I cant. Ill have to seek more help.
Not getting the charge handle assembly out means you cant really take the barrel off (I dont think). But even if you CAN, I cant get the barrel lock to turn for the life of me. I flip the little lever on the other side up with a punch and turn the lock for all im worth, to the point I bent a really thick metal plate id filed to fit. If its supposed to be easy, im doing something very wrong. So, after the barrel wont come off you might as well just put her back together cause theres really nothing else you can do.
TRIGGER MODIFICATION
OK... the trigger sucks. Everyone who has one says it... and its true. But, I followed the videos online (again, TVpresspass has a good one) about removing the extra trigger return spring and HOLY CRAP. The trigger is improved so much its actually not describable. The trigger went from ultra bad... worst ive ever pulled... to SKS or VZ58 good. Its still a little mushy on initial take up but once it gets tight... thats it... its ready to go and it breaks clean and light. Ill be interested to hear if anyone finds any negative long term effects from this change. If non pop up, its an absolutely MANDATORY alteration for anyone NOT using the gun in extreme conflict situations.
I fiddled around with the stock mag trying to figure out why it only holds 4 rounds (and not even 4.5... its barely 4). I cant see anything wrong. The limiter is a stamped indent in the mag body that would have to be the same for everyone and the follower is metal that is also stamped so it would be very close to everyone elses I would guess. My only solution was to drill out the indent and re-drill a new hole on the other side and install my own rivet. It was all I could think of and it worked fine. I do now have a hole in one side of the mag body that ive covered with a custom piece of electrical tape. But at least the mag is useable.
Ive been reading more and watching more videos and have found the bolt not holding open on the last shot is common with Pmags. I didnt use my LAR mags much when I ran the gun the other day and I didnt use the stock mag at all so I cant say if the problem existed with those mags but from what I have read, its a problem limited to Pmags only and its minor.
Not really much else to report. The gun was not overly dirty from the cheap norinco rounds. Inside was clean, just some build up on the gas piston and the bolt face really. Everything else just had some orangeish goo from isreal. No actual residue at all.
Hoping to get out tomorrow for another run and put a few hundred more rounds through it. Ill report back about how the trigger changed the guns shooting characteristics after I get a bit more time with it.
Likewise, getting the charging handle assembly off was not going to happen for me. I tried everything and simply can not figure out how to do it. I watched TVpresspass's video like a dozen times and it seems his aftermarket top rail is just different enough that the assemble can slide out. Mine would not... at least not as easily as the youtube videos or the manual suggests. I gave up after about 30 minutes. Im not at all mechanically inept either. I can figure stuff out. This, I cant. Ill have to seek more help.
Not getting the charge handle assembly out means you cant really take the barrel off (I dont think). But even if you CAN, I cant get the barrel lock to turn for the life of me. I flip the little lever on the other side up with a punch and turn the lock for all im worth, to the point I bent a really thick metal plate id filed to fit. If its supposed to be easy, im doing something very wrong. So, after the barrel wont come off you might as well just put her back together cause theres really nothing else you can do.
TRIGGER MODIFICATION
OK... the trigger sucks. Everyone who has one says it... and its true. But, I followed the videos online (again, TVpresspass has a good one) about removing the extra trigger return spring and HOLY CRAP. The trigger is improved so much its actually not describable. The trigger went from ultra bad... worst ive ever pulled... to SKS or VZ58 good. Its still a little mushy on initial take up but once it gets tight... thats it... its ready to go and it breaks clean and light. Ill be interested to hear if anyone finds any negative long term effects from this change. If non pop up, its an absolutely MANDATORY alteration for anyone NOT using the gun in extreme conflict situations.
I fiddled around with the stock mag trying to figure out why it only holds 4 rounds (and not even 4.5... its barely 4). I cant see anything wrong. The limiter is a stamped indent in the mag body that would have to be the same for everyone and the follower is metal that is also stamped so it would be very close to everyone elses I would guess. My only solution was to drill out the indent and re-drill a new hole on the other side and install my own rivet. It was all I could think of and it worked fine. I do now have a hole in one side of the mag body that ive covered with a custom piece of electrical tape. But at least the mag is useable.
Ive been reading more and watching more videos and have found the bolt not holding open on the last shot is common with Pmags. I didnt use my LAR mags much when I ran the gun the other day and I didnt use the stock mag at all so I cant say if the problem existed with those mags but from what I have read, its a problem limited to Pmags only and its minor.
Not really much else to report. The gun was not overly dirty from the cheap norinco rounds. Inside was clean, just some build up on the gas piston and the bolt face really. Everything else just had some orangeish goo from isreal. No actual residue at all.
Hoping to get out tomorrow for another run and put a few hundred more rounds through it. Ill report back about how the trigger changed the guns shooting characteristics after I get a bit more time with it.
I did pull the frame apart. But the internal portion of the charge handle gets stuck on the barrel lug. The top rail prevents you from moving it upward at all so it gets wedged in there. If anyone has tips on this, feel free to post em up.
I just got a Tavor yesterday and fought with this issue for about 30 minutes, then I realized there's just two allen screws holding the super long rail on the top. Once the rail is removed no issues with the rest of the disassembly. I don't have a barrel wrench, but a mastercraft 5/32" 'bit socket' from Crappy Tire (part# 058-7335-6) on a 3/8 drive socket wrench worked very nicely. Was almost too easy after a bunch of other jury-rigged attempts.
I think most of the tear down videos / how to's are based on the short upper rail rather then the full length one, which is why this issue isn't mentioned anywhere.
Totally agree with almost everything in your review, including the built in back-up sights, I can't get enough of them, and they work really well if your eotech's battery dies
Only thing I don't agree with is the trigger. I'm having no issues with it at all and quite like it. I think the key is to use a Norinco M4 for about a year, THEN you'll think the Tavor is top notch.
I think most of the tear down videos / how to's are based on the short upper rail rather then the full length one, which is why this issue isn't mentioned anywhere.
Totally agree with almost everything in your review, including the built in back-up sights, I can't get enough of them, and they work really well if your eotech's battery dies
Only thing I don't agree with is the trigger. I'm having no issues with it at all and quite like it. I think the key is to use a Norinco M4 for about a year, THEN you'll think the Tavor is top notch.Pave.... Once you get it taken down completely you will surprised at how easy it is to do the second time. Keep at it.
These rifles love good 60-62 gr ammo. A group of us were able to get groupings under an inch at 100 yards with reload and just over with factory IVI 62 gr ammo. Just removing that little trigger spring goes a long way in making the trigger better
These rifles love good 60-62 gr ammo. A group of us were able to get groupings under an inch at 100 yards with reload and just over with factory IVI 62 gr ammo. Just removing that little trigger spring goes a long way in making the trigger better
I figured at the end of the day, that top rail would have to come off. Thanks for confirming that guys. I know once its off the rest of the tear down will be a breeze. Ill get the bit you suggested SteveD... that should solve that problem as well.
Ive got a streamlight TLR-1 coming with the remote pressure switch. Im going to try and rig it up so the pressure button on the side of the forward grip activates the light. Lots of ideas.
Ive got a streamlight TLR-1 coming with the remote pressure switch. Im going to try and rig it up so the pressure button on the side of the forward grip activates the light. Lots of ideas.
Well, attempted to remove the barrel after taking the charge handle off. Which, was easy after the rail was off.
But, the barrel lock will NOT turn. Ive actually broken a screwdriver trying. Am I missing something. Ive pushed the little lock lever on the opposite side and tried to turn the lock and it will NOT turn. Any other tips?
But, the barrel lock will NOT turn. Ive actually broken a screwdriver trying. Am I missing something. Ive pushed the little lock lever on the opposite side and tried to turn the lock and it will NOT turn. Any other tips?
