Primer/Powder compatibility H4831

358Scout

358Scout

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Went to the range with my Sharpes 45-90 to try out my new 480 gr bullets

Load consisted of 50 grains of H4831 & CCI Bench Rest BR-2 Large Rifle Primer
Out of 6 shots I had 4 misfires. There was enough juice to propel the bullet about 2" down the bore.
When I extracted the case, it was virtually full of powder but the color had changed to yellow.

Just pulled two bullets to see what the powder color was now. Thought it might have been the
bullet lube - a recipe I down loaded off the net - maybe there was a chemical reaction to the powder in the case.
NOPE - its still the same color as whats in the bottle.

This leaves me to think that maybe its the primers. I've never used this powder before.
I've been searching the net to see if there's a chart for primer/powder compatibility.
Any suggestions as to what primer I should switch to?

I do know the CCI work great in my 45-70 with Reloader 7, IMRS 3031, 4198, 4895 and SR 4759.
 
Where did you get the idea to use H4831 in the 45-90?

That powder is WAY to slow and probably doesn't generate enough pressure for the powder to burn properly.
 
Got this load off of LOADDATA.com specifically titled [.45-90 WCF/.45-2.4-in Sharps (Cast blts/34-in bbl)]. They used a 515 grain Lyman 457125 mold generating 1,279 fps with 54.0 grains H-4831.
They claim it to be the "best cast bullet accuracy in this weight class from the Sharps."
 
with my 45-120 ( on a ruger #1 ) , one of the loads I have used was basically fill the entire case with imr4831( roughly around 100 grains ) , and seat a 400 grain barnes x bullet on top , with a Remington 91/2 mag primer .

never a problem with misfires .

my first thought is the bullet lube you are using is messing up how the powder burns .
i'd try a few rounds without any lube at all .
 
Powders like the 4831's, Re19 and I think 7828 although I haven't tried that last one myself are used by some shooters with cast bullets. Basically they are taking advantage of a slower pressure rise which can be a bit gentler on the soft bullet than many powders commonly used with cast for mid-range loads. A key to good ignition is to have a compressed load. Either by the bullet if that amount of powder is safe or for a reduced case capacity powder load by topping the powder with a non-binding filler (particularly in bottle neck cases) such as PSB (Precision Reloading shot shell buffer). A solid crimp can be beneficial to ignition as well as a hot primer. I have used both the first two powders I mentioned in a 348 and 35 Whelen's. Somewhere around 4 to 6 grains of PSB topped the powder in these to get compression. When using the filler consider it's weight as part of the ejecta (filler plus bullet weight) when calculating powder charges. In the 348 in particular I got much improved accuracy at speeds above 2000 with this method as compared to faster burning powders at similar speed. I think you should research the load technique the source used.
If SEE exists you may be treading in that direction if there is a lot of space left between the powder charge and bullet base. Perhaps you were lucky to just get incomplete powder ignition so far.
 
A slow powder like 4831 usually calls for a magnum primer but others have had no issue with regular primers. I tend to use them since I have them.
I believe slower powders also require higher pressures to burn completely so make sure the rifle is capable of withstanding it (I have no experience with the rifle in question so just throwing that out there.)

stocker said:
If SEE exists you may be treading in that direction if there is a lot of space left between the powder charge and bullet base. Perhaps you were lucky to just get incomplete powder ignition so far.
Click to expand...
As far as I have found Norma's ballistic lab is the only one to be able to cause a SEE almost on request and it still only happened about a third of the time at most. It required a charge of slow magnum powder (like 4831) but with at least, if memory serves, 60-70% empty space in a large case (like the 45-70). Anything over a 50% capacity charge I wouldn't worry personally. I've loaded H4831 down to ~60% capacity loads in .300WM with no filler and got very consistent velocity (greatly fluctuating velocity is another sign to watch out for.)
 
Lutnit: I have tried pretty hard to make SEE occur in surplus 303's about 40 years ago. It didn't happen. Norma according to the internet did make it occur. They probably had more money than I did to experiment and probably more available time. It seems to be one of those things that only has to happen once to make a believer. I am really not certain how much empty space exists in a 45/90 with a 50 grain charge of 4831. Are you? My gut says it's fair amount as I put heavier charges than that in a 45/70 with no compression.. I am saying there needs to be as much research as you can do.
 
stocker said:
Norma according to the internet did make it occur.
Click to expand...
They actually printed it in some of their manuals. It's not just "the internet" that says so.

The vast majority of SEE's I've read about are easily explained away as double/triple charges or a bullet lodged in the barrel (people playing with under 500fps loads). Norma's ballistic lab did manage to get some results so I just avoid under 50% charges of magnum powders. I also have no idea how much 4831 will fit in a 45-70 or 45-90 case as I've never used it in either so I was just throwing that out there. I know a 45gr charge of H4895 is 80ish% capacity under a 300gr bullet in 45-70 but don't know the density difference between it and either 4831. I've never had a SEE and personally I didn't believe in them until I ran into an old Norma manual that mentioned their laboratory results. The Norma article was mentioned here on CGN but I found a physical copy of it in a manual sitting on a store counter. Prior to that I only found anecdotal evidence with no proof of load data; in fact most people mentioning SEE's mentioned "about this much powder" or "around this load data". I do have some faith in a reputable international ammunition company's scientific laboratory results, not so much in hearsay or anecdotes.
 
I was the guy next to you at the range, banging away with a .458 Win among other things. Stick some 215s or WLRMs in those loads and they will go bang instead of click. I'll even give you some to try, PM if interested. Cool rifle.
 
Thanks Dogleg. I picked up 200 215s at Cabelas Sunday. Will load up a few and try them out on Saturday. Weird - I've been using CCI primers my 45-70 with RE-7 and IMR 3031 - never had a misfire.
 
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