I picked up a JR Carbine in 9mm a short while back, and immediately fell in love with the handy little rifle. Ergonomic, light weight, relatively quiet to shoot and surprisingly accurate.
I then heard really good things about the Thureon Defence rifles, and ended up picking one of those up as well, but in .45 ACP calibre.
I took the JR hunting a few times and shot some small game with it, and was totally impressed. Back in the day, one of my favourite rifles for hunting was an AR-15 H-Bar in .223 with a Redfield 2x-7x scope. The days of hunting with an AR are long gone, but I found that this rifle was the next best thing!
I kept wondering though, how would one of these pistol calibre carbines in an AR platform do for deer hunting? Would the 9mm be adequate? Would a bigger calibre like the .45 ACP be better? Accurate enough? Powerful enough? Hmmmm…..
I tried looking up some info on the search engine and didn’t find any particularly useful information in regards to loads that would be suitable for deer, so I decided to do a bit of research on my own.
I’ve shot and hunted with pistol calibre carbines before (lever guns in .357 Mag, .44 Mag and .45 Colt.) The velocity increases in these cartridges out of a carbine or rifle length barrel vs. a handgun barrel were impressive, as well as being more accurate (and of course legal to hunt with.) Even the slightly anaemic .45 Colt with heavier loads of slower burning powder was brought up to near .44 Magnum levels out of the carbine. Could the same be done with the 9mm and the .45 ACP?
Having a longer barrel, I figured that the slowest burning powder would yield the best results out of a rifle, so I opted for Alliant Blue Dot for both cartridges. I made some near-max loads and tested them alongside factory ammo with the same bullet weight to see if there would be any difference. I tested both accuracy on paper targets and shot all the loads over a chronograph to measure velocity, extreme spread, muzzle energy and standard deviation.
This , then, is the JR Carbine/Thureon Defence 9mm/.45 ACP Is It Good Enough for Deer – The Definitive Study Thread.
Introducing the guns: First off, the JR Carbine in 9mm with standard AR carry handle rear sight and barrel mounted AR style front sight. Mags are Glock 10/33.
Second we have a Thureon Defence in .45 ACP. This one I mounted with a Bell 4x Compact scope with low aluminum rings. Mags are standard Glock 10 round.
The ammo is as following:
For 9mm, factory load of Winchester White Box 115gr FMJ. Reloads used were near-max loads of Alliant Blue Dot under a 124gr CCI Speer Gold Dot Hollow Point. Out of a handgun, the 115 and 124 grain loads are nearly identical in velocity, and since I was intending on using the heavier bullet for hunting (for better penetration) I used the 124gr bullet for the heavier load instead of a 115gr.
For the .45 ACP, I used Winchester White Box 230gr FMJ. Reloads were near-max charges of Alliant Blue Dot under a Hornady 230gr XTP.
(From Left to Right: Winchester White Box 9mm 115gr FMJ, Reload 124gr Gold Dot Hollow Point, Winchester White Box .45 ACP FMJ, Reload Hornady 230gr XTP-HP)
Velocity Results
All loads were fired over a chronograph 2 meters from the muzzle, 5 shots per load. Here are the results( in FPS)
[1] 9mm Factory 115 grain FMJ – 1322, 1331, 1327, 1302, 1294.
Advertised Ballistics (Handgun) 1120 fps
Average Velocity: 1315
Muzzle Energy: 476 ft/lbs
Extreme Spread: 37
Standard Deviation: 16.3
[2] 9mm 124gr Speer Gold Dot Reloads, Blue Dot Powder – 1448, 1461, 1443, 1452, 1414
Average Velocity: 1444
Muzzle Energy: 575 ft/lbs
Extreme Spread: 47
Standard Deviation: 17.8
[3] .45 ACP Factory 230gr FMJ – 962, 955, 982, 993, 963
Advertise velocity (Handgun) 835fps
Average Velocity: 973
Muzzle Energy: 483 ft/lbs
Extreme Spread: 38
Standard Deviation: 13.8
[4] .45 ACP Hornady 230gr XTP Reloads, Alliant Blue Dot – 1048, 988, 1062, 1108, 1029
Average Velocity: 1047
Muzzle Energy: 560 ft/lbs
Extreme Spread: 120
Standard Deviation: 44.0
In the 9mm out of the JR Carbine, there was a 195 fps increase in velocity of the 9mm Factory load out of the carbine vs. out of a handgun. At an average velocity of 1444 fps, there was an impressive 324fps difference with the Blue Dot Load and the factory load (out of a handgun) and 129fps difference between both loads out of the carbine.
In .45 ACP, there was a velocity increase of 128fps between the carbine ballistics and advertised handgun velocity, and at 1047 fps average velocity, the Blue Dot load is 212 fps faster. Between both loads out of the carbine, there was a 74 fps difference.
All loads were fired with two 3 shot strings each at 50m and 100m. Below are pictures of the results:
9mm Winchester 115 gr FMJ - 50m
9mm Winchester 115gr FMJ - 100m (1st group off paper)
9mm Blue Dot Reloads 124 gr Gold Dot Bullet, 50m (1 extra shot, ooops)
9mm Blue Dot Reloads 124gr Gold Dot Bullet, 100m (note 2 shots through one hole!)
.45 ACP Winchester 230gr FMJ - 50m
.45 ACP Winchester 230gr FMJ -100m (Only 3 shots registered on paper, other grouped low.)
.45 ACP Blue Dot Powder Reloads, 230gr Horn XTP Bullet, 50m (Ignore the fly near the bottom!)
.45 ACP Blue Dot Powder Reloads, 230gr Horn XTP Bullet, 100m (Another extra shot, wasn't counting properly that day. Also note the 3 shot group off target, was from .45 ACP Winchester 230gr Factory Load)
The Verdict:
Ballistically speaking, the 9mm fired out of the JR Carbine, particularly with the Blue Dot loads at 1444fps, is hot on the heels of .357 Magnum velocity out of a 6 inch barrel handgun.
In the accuracy department, the JR Carbine was absolutely astounding for a pistol calibre semi-auto carbine. Using open sights, I was able to get impressive results at both 50 and 100 metres with both loads. With a scope, this thing would have been a veritable varmint rifle.
I only had one jam, a FTE that mangled a case that I attribute to a dirty gun near the end of the shooting session.
The .45 ACP Carbine with Blue Dot loads is nearly identical to the tried and true 44-40 Winchester, one of the most common and successful deer loads at the turn of the last century. Compared to modern guns and loads, the 44-40 seems slightly better than throwing rocks but back in the day accounted for more deer on the table than most other cartridges combined.
I expected better accuracy with the scope. At 50 metres the accuracy was impressive, but at 100, while a bit more erratic, was still within Minute of Whitetail. A little bit of load tweaking and a bit more range time would definitely improve the accuracy bit. I attributed the not so great accuracy at 100m to the fact that I had more mixed cases in my reloads with the .45 vs. the 9mm.
I would suspect that a 200 grain load would probably be an improvement over the 230 grain, as the tiny case of the .45 ACP would propel this bullet slightly faster and it perhaps would not drop so much at the 100m mark. I’m going to have to experiment some more in the near future, but that’s why shooting is so much darn fun in the first place!
In the reliability department, I was not too happy with the Thureon; I got 4 FTE jams that mangled the cases (both factory and reloads) and 3 FTF, 2 of which were on first loading. I attribute a good portion of this to a not-so-thorough cleaning session last time I used the gun, but I find in general that this gun tends to jam up with more frequency than the JR does.
Therefore, are either (or both) of these guns adequate to hunt deer with? I believe that with the right loads, both of these would be marginal but adequate for deer. The 9mm is on par with lower end .357 Mag ballistics, and the .45 about on par with the 44-40 Winchester. As long as you keep the shots under 100m (75 would probably be better) I think these guns would prove to be the modern equivalents of lever action pistol cartridge carbines of yore. You have to keep them spotlessly clean and lubed for reliable functioning, as well as trying out several magazines as they tend to be very finicky with magazines.
The .45 is bigger and heavier, but the 9mm is faster so all in all, pretty equal but I would give the edge to the .45
The proof, as they say, is in the pudding. Will I be using either of these cartridges for deer this fall? Maybe. More than likely though, I’ll be sticking to my .308 …….
I then heard really good things about the Thureon Defence rifles, and ended up picking one of those up as well, but in .45 ACP calibre.
I took the JR hunting a few times and shot some small game with it, and was totally impressed. Back in the day, one of my favourite rifles for hunting was an AR-15 H-Bar in .223 with a Redfield 2x-7x scope. The days of hunting with an AR are long gone, but I found that this rifle was the next best thing!
I kept wondering though, how would one of these pistol calibre carbines in an AR platform do for deer hunting? Would the 9mm be adequate? Would a bigger calibre like the .45 ACP be better? Accurate enough? Powerful enough? Hmmmm…..
I tried looking up some info on the search engine and didn’t find any particularly useful information in regards to loads that would be suitable for deer, so I decided to do a bit of research on my own.
I’ve shot and hunted with pistol calibre carbines before (lever guns in .357 Mag, .44 Mag and .45 Colt.) The velocity increases in these cartridges out of a carbine or rifle length barrel vs. a handgun barrel were impressive, as well as being more accurate (and of course legal to hunt with.) Even the slightly anaemic .45 Colt with heavier loads of slower burning powder was brought up to near .44 Magnum levels out of the carbine. Could the same be done with the 9mm and the .45 ACP?
Having a longer barrel, I figured that the slowest burning powder would yield the best results out of a rifle, so I opted for Alliant Blue Dot for both cartridges. I made some near-max loads and tested them alongside factory ammo with the same bullet weight to see if there would be any difference. I tested both accuracy on paper targets and shot all the loads over a chronograph to measure velocity, extreme spread, muzzle energy and standard deviation.
This , then, is the JR Carbine/Thureon Defence 9mm/.45 ACP Is It Good Enough for Deer – The Definitive Study Thread.
The Cast
Introducing the guns: First off, the JR Carbine in 9mm with standard AR carry handle rear sight and barrel mounted AR style front sight. Mags are Glock 10/33.
Second we have a Thureon Defence in .45 ACP. This one I mounted with a Bell 4x Compact scope with low aluminum rings. Mags are standard Glock 10 round.
The ammo is as following:
For 9mm, factory load of Winchester White Box 115gr FMJ. Reloads used were near-max loads of Alliant Blue Dot under a 124gr CCI Speer Gold Dot Hollow Point. Out of a handgun, the 115 and 124 grain loads are nearly identical in velocity, and since I was intending on using the heavier bullet for hunting (for better penetration) I used the 124gr bullet for the heavier load instead of a 115gr.
For the .45 ACP, I used Winchester White Box 230gr FMJ. Reloads were near-max charges of Alliant Blue Dot under a Hornady 230gr XTP.
(From Left to Right: Winchester White Box 9mm 115gr FMJ, Reload 124gr Gold Dot Hollow Point, Winchester White Box .45 ACP FMJ, Reload Hornady 230gr XTP-HP)
Velocity Results
All loads were fired over a chronograph 2 meters from the muzzle, 5 shots per load. Here are the results( in FPS)
[1] 9mm Factory 115 grain FMJ – 1322, 1331, 1327, 1302, 1294.
Advertised Ballistics (Handgun) 1120 fps
Average Velocity: 1315
Muzzle Energy: 476 ft/lbs
Extreme Spread: 37
Standard Deviation: 16.3
[2] 9mm 124gr Speer Gold Dot Reloads, Blue Dot Powder – 1448, 1461, 1443, 1452, 1414
Average Velocity: 1444
Muzzle Energy: 575 ft/lbs
Extreme Spread: 47
Standard Deviation: 17.8
[3] .45 ACP Factory 230gr FMJ – 962, 955, 982, 993, 963
Advertise velocity (Handgun) 835fps
Average Velocity: 973
Muzzle Energy: 483 ft/lbs
Extreme Spread: 38
Standard Deviation: 13.8
[4] .45 ACP Hornady 230gr XTP Reloads, Alliant Blue Dot – 1048, 988, 1062, 1108, 1029
Average Velocity: 1047
Muzzle Energy: 560 ft/lbs
Extreme Spread: 120
Standard Deviation: 44.0
In the 9mm out of the JR Carbine, there was a 195 fps increase in velocity of the 9mm Factory load out of the carbine vs. out of a handgun. At an average velocity of 1444 fps, there was an impressive 324fps difference with the Blue Dot Load and the factory load (out of a handgun) and 129fps difference between both loads out of the carbine.
In .45 ACP, there was a velocity increase of 128fps between the carbine ballistics and advertised handgun velocity, and at 1047 fps average velocity, the Blue Dot load is 212 fps faster. Between both loads out of the carbine, there was a 74 fps difference.
Accuracy and Reliability
All loads were fired with two 3 shot strings each at 50m and 100m. Below are pictures of the results:
9mm Winchester 115 gr FMJ - 50m
9mm Winchester 115gr FMJ - 100m (1st group off paper)
9mm Blue Dot Reloads 124 gr Gold Dot Bullet, 50m (1 extra shot, ooops)
9mm Blue Dot Reloads 124gr Gold Dot Bullet, 100m (note 2 shots through one hole!)
.45 ACP Winchester 230gr FMJ - 50m
.45 ACP Winchester 230gr FMJ -100m (Only 3 shots registered on paper, other grouped low.)
.45 ACP Blue Dot Powder Reloads, 230gr Horn XTP Bullet, 50m (Ignore the fly near the bottom!)
.45 ACP Blue Dot Powder Reloads, 230gr Horn XTP Bullet, 100m (Another extra shot, wasn't counting properly that day. Also note the 3 shot group off target, was from .45 ACP Winchester 230gr Factory Load)
The Verdict:
Ballistically speaking, the 9mm fired out of the JR Carbine, particularly with the Blue Dot loads at 1444fps, is hot on the heels of .357 Magnum velocity out of a 6 inch barrel handgun.
In the accuracy department, the JR Carbine was absolutely astounding for a pistol calibre semi-auto carbine. Using open sights, I was able to get impressive results at both 50 and 100 metres with both loads. With a scope, this thing would have been a veritable varmint rifle.
I only had one jam, a FTE that mangled a case that I attribute to a dirty gun near the end of the shooting session.
The .45 ACP Carbine with Blue Dot loads is nearly identical to the tried and true 44-40 Winchester, one of the most common and successful deer loads at the turn of the last century. Compared to modern guns and loads, the 44-40 seems slightly better than throwing rocks but back in the day accounted for more deer on the table than most other cartridges combined.
I expected better accuracy with the scope. At 50 metres the accuracy was impressive, but at 100, while a bit more erratic, was still within Minute of Whitetail. A little bit of load tweaking and a bit more range time would definitely improve the accuracy bit. I attributed the not so great accuracy at 100m to the fact that I had more mixed cases in my reloads with the .45 vs. the 9mm.
I would suspect that a 200 grain load would probably be an improvement over the 230 grain, as the tiny case of the .45 ACP would propel this bullet slightly faster and it perhaps would not drop so much at the 100m mark. I’m going to have to experiment some more in the near future, but that’s why shooting is so much darn fun in the first place!
In the reliability department, I was not too happy with the Thureon; I got 4 FTE jams that mangled the cases (both factory and reloads) and 3 FTF, 2 of which were on first loading. I attribute a good portion of this to a not-so-thorough cleaning session last time I used the gun, but I find in general that this gun tends to jam up with more frequency than the JR does.
Therefore, are either (or both) of these guns adequate to hunt deer with? I believe that with the right loads, both of these would be marginal but adequate for deer. The 9mm is on par with lower end .357 Mag ballistics, and the .45 about on par with the 44-40 Winchester. As long as you keep the shots under 100m (75 would probably be better) I think these guns would prove to be the modern equivalents of lever action pistol cartridge carbines of yore. You have to keep them spotlessly clean and lubed for reliable functioning, as well as trying out several magazines as they tend to be very finicky with magazines.
The .45 is bigger and heavier, but the 9mm is faster so all in all, pretty equal but I would give the edge to the .45
The proof, as they say, is in the pudding. Will I be using either of these cartridges for deer this fall? Maybe. More than likely though, I’ll be sticking to my .308 …….
I'm thinking of using the KSG with rifled slugs for a deer this year but it's seems wrong to plug one tube completely and the other to 2 rounds to be legal.
