Fit vs Fundamentals

How do you weigh fit vs fundamentals?


  • Total voters
    90
The CQB matches do not require quick shooting, if you find you are having to shoot fast then you probably have a gun handling issue that is costing you time. Precision counts way more than raw speed at the CQB matches.

The "quick shooting" I am referring to is how long does it take me to get the first shot off. In CQB we shoot one to the head (calls for precision at 35 yards) and 2 to the body (can't miss.)

I elect to shoot the head shot first. I have found that between my CZ, 1911 and M&P (all have custom triggers and sights) the M&P is noticeably faster with that first shot. I am assuming this is a "fit" issue, since the shooter (fundamentals) is the same.

The CZ is the most comfortable of the three, so the "fit" issue is based on results, not 'feel". In an absolute grouping capability, the M &P is probably the poorest of the three - but I get the best result with it. So that is what I use when I care about score.
 
Man, it would be so nice to have a civil exchange of ideas for once without you diving in with a bunch of pointless insults. For the record, it is entirely possible to disagree with someone without being an ass.

Tsk, tsk Mr. Elliott. You didn't break the barriers of puberty yesterday and should know better. It's not about civil discussion at all with some people; it's about being right or at least creating the impression of being right. Happily, most of us aren't dominated by that level of compulsive need. Most of us are here to enjoy the sport and in my case the fellowship that goes with it. I'm almost 70 and have no plan whatever of becoming a tactical operator whatever that means. If you ever catch me doing 500 presentations in the same month get me to a mental health professional.

I have great respect for the shooting sports people in general. I struggle with a few things in my hopelessly incompetent life and shooting helps to keep me level and happy. I shoot with some people that are 35/40 years my junior all the time and not one of them has been anything other than friendly and helpful. Occasionally I have to pack my Pollyanna attitudes a little deeper in my range bags. With just a few people, I keep my expectations low and am not disappointed.
 
Jeese, excuse me but I didn't realize we were talking about service pistols only. For some reason it wasn't instantly apparent that there are in fact no other valid forms of firearms on Earth and everyone should know that. I guess that's the problem with making assumptions.

And "I have no excuses?" Really? Who said I was talking about me? But go ahead and post anything you want if you think that will prove me wrong....and if it's really that important to you to do so. After all, videos posted on the internet are the only empirical proof needed for justifying any position, right?

Man, it would be so nice to have a civil exchange of ideas for once without you diving in with a bunch of pointless insults. For the record, it is entirely possible to disagree with someone without being an ass.

Lol, you did see that this is the Gunnutz forum before you posted didn't you?
 
Alright, in the hopes of at least saving some of the dignity we started with, I'll sum up my own takeaways here.

Fundamentals is important. Most of us consider fundamentals paramount to 'fit'. The poll results and most of the responses here say as much.

I'll continue to use quotes around 'fit' because 'fit' still seems to be a subjective term. I'll agree with relliott's previous statement on ergonomics. If, for whatever reason, you cannot physically work the various controls on a firearm then some consideration must be taken when choosing. However, most pistols are designed to be used by the majority of the population. So, let's focus on ergonomics, and our ability to control the firearm. Can I lock the slide back? Can I release the slide either by racking it or working the slide release (not debating this technique here, that was another thread)? Can I insert and eject the magazine without any issues? Can I press the trigger and cause the hammer to strike the firing pin? Can I bring the firearm up and acquire my sight picture?

When I bought my first pistol, I judged my choices based on these criteria. I dismissed several pistols because of these criteria. Using these criteria now, I would not dismiss any of those pistols now. So what's changed? Simply put, I kept shooting. It's like learning to play the piano. Without looking, I can find a High C. Just as I can now eject the magazine on a pistol because the magazine release is in almost the same damn place on every pistol. Further to that, I can eject them just as quickly as I can on my CZ, or my Sig. Your body eventually learns these things so they become instinctive. This comes from practice.

So what does it mean if I have a problem performing any of the actions I am expected to perform when operating a pistol? Is the problem that only a few pistols actually 'fit' me? Or am I still rubbish at handling pistols? 8 months have taught me that I was just rubbish initially.

So, let's define 'fit' as being ergonomically sound. I think that most pistols would fit this definition. If I pick up a pistol and quickly point it, chances are that my trigger finger will naturally fit into the trigger guard and onto the trigger. My sights will be aligned roughly with my intended target. It won't be too large or too small to the point that I cannot safely work all of the controls on the pistol. I may be off on my description of ergonomics, but relliot came closest to actually defining 'fit' as relating to ergonomics.

So what's left? That word is feel. This word has come up a few times in this thread, and I agree that people tend to blur fit and feel. This is why 'fit' has yet to be defined. The reason that 'fit' cannot be defined is that it's a collection of people's personal thoughts on a specific item, and a given point in time. Not long after buying my CZ, it started to feel like it didn't 'fit' properly. This is because I didn't know what the hell to look for when I bought it.

Fundamentals overcame that, and fundamentals overcame my inability to shoot the pistols I once dismissed.

So, does 'fit' or 'feel' have any place in my world view as a shooter? Sure. I may like the feel of cocobolo grips on my CZ than the rubber grips it came with. However, my groups are going to be the same in either case. I may like the placement of the magazine release on my Sig better than my CZ, but the bottom line is, I can quickly eject a magazine and reload at about the same speed with either firearm. When push comes to shove, and I have to hit my target, my hours of practice take over. Superficial differences mean something to you, the shooter. However, they will likely mean very little as far as performance. If you have trouble working a pistol, or any firearm, for a particular reason, you have to really take a look as to whether the problem lies with the firearm, or your overall technique. My own experience shows that with sufficient practice, I just don't feel the differences between pistols anymore.
 
Jeese, excuse me but I didn't realize we were talking about service pistols only. For some reason it wasn't instantly apparent that there are in fact no other valid forms of firearms on Earth and everyone should know that. I guess that's the problem with making assumptions.

And "I have no excuses?" Really? Who said I was talking about me? But go ahead and post anything you want if you think that will prove me wrong....and if it's really that important to you to do so. After all, videos posted on the internet are the only empirical proof needed for justifying any position, right?

Man, it would be so nice to have a civil exchange of ideas for once without you diving in with a bunch of pointless insults. For the record, it is entirely possible to disagree with someone without being an ass.

Someone needs to relax and re read my post. I wasn't singling you out individually, I was merely offering an example of what most inexperienced untrained shooters demonstrate at the range. I likely have never seen you shoot so how could I be referring to you?? Regardless, I apologize if you felt my comments were directed towards you, they were not.

With regards to other pistols, what are you referring to? There are very few here who compete at the olympic level and even fewer vendors who offer Olympic level guns. The cost of those guns is insane which is another factor that keeps most from running one. The common action in this country is for cheap cheap and more cheap, so Norinco is the norm not Hammerli.

You know what is terrible, watching guys at the range all badass with their pistols who have absolutely 0 fundamentals. Like the guys next to me the other day. They were having FUN, and I wasn't going to rain on it but....it looks like they learned to shoot by watching too many movies and are all gung-ho at the range.

Then you see them throw 50 rounds at 7 yards and maybe 30 are even lucky to be on paper, using strange stances and grips and overexagerating follow through and other very strange things....

Once you learn basic fundamentals, seeing people who don't know what they are doing is a little cringe worthy at times. Like I almost want to help by showing them how to do a few simple things properly but, really its not my business.

To these guys, fit means nothing.

FUNDAMENTALS FIRST, only then can you UNDERSTAND WHAT WILL WORK FOR YOU IN TERMS OF FIT. I mean, if you don't know how to shoot "properly" and don't even know proper stance or grip, how can you tell if the gun fits you??? I guess its like saying, if you don't know how to properly swing a golf club, how would you even know what golf club you would like?

Nicely put sir..

Tsk, tsk Mr. Elliott. You didn't break the barriers of puberty yesterday and should know better. It's not about civil discussion at all with some people; it's about being right or at least creating the impression of being right. Happily, most of us aren't dominated by that level of compulsive need. Most of us are here to enjoy the sport and in my case the fellowship that goes with it. I'm almost 70 and have no plan whatever of becoming a tactical operator whatever that means. If you ever catch me doing 500 presentations in the same month get me to a mental health professional.

I have great respect for the shooting sports people in general. I struggle with a few things in my hopelessly incompetent life and shooting helps to keep me level and happy. I shoot with some people that are 35/40 years my junior all the time and not one of them has been anything other than friendly and helpful. Occasionally I have to pack my Pollyanna attitudes a little deeper in my range bags. With just a few people, I keep my expectations low and am not disappointed.

I'm ok with those who wish to believe that what they don't know is in fact correct, factual, useful, productive, or just simply entertaining. After all, its your money and your lack of performance to enjoy. What does baffle me is when such blatant common sense and proven logic has been disclosed and yet the other side still refuses to accept it. That sir, is called ignorance. Again, notice the obvious trend in the poll attached to this thread(this is a general statement to all who are reading this, no one is being singled out). Notice how those who've taken training are also those who don't put any weight behind "fit"? I guess all the training schools are selling snake oil and offer no legitimate information. Clearly, the "self taught" method of learning a complex task is the right way. Unfortunately, you can't teach yourself something you don't know, read Chuck 3436 post above, specifically the bold near the bottom.

TDC
 
it's a sure sign of the apocalypse when TDC and me agree. If you can stay reasonably active for 30-45 without a need for a break (doing whatever activity you do), and that activity involves you being up and moving around. So, walking, running, golf, soccer, baseball, hiking, biking etc. Pretty much anything. you are physically fit enough to be able to be in the top 10 percent of pretty much any shooting sport, once you learn and master the fundamentals. And you know what will separate you from the match winners? Better fundamentals, most of the time.
 
I've watched a few videos, and am doing my best to apply the lessons, but the fact is that with huge hands and long fingers, if the pistol doesn't fit me, the fundamentals, such as using the pad of the finger on the trigger for example, do not work for me.

There ARE those of us out there who don't fall within 3 standard deviations of the mean.

I can't contort myself on to and ride a sport bike either. Guess my motorcycle operating fundamentals blow too, eh?
 
Someone needs to relax and re read my post. I wasn't singling you out individually, I was merely offering an example of what most inexperienced untrained shooters demonstrate at the range. I likely have never seen you shoot so how could I be referring to you?? Regardless, I apologize if you felt my comments were directed towards you, they were not.
Fair enough. I was responding to the context of your written word.
For the record, we don't disagree on fundamentals. Theses are the primary things I teach and always have.

[/QUOTE]
With regards to other pistols, what are you referring to? There are very few here who compete at the olympic level and even fewer vendors who offer Olympic level guns. The cost of those guns is insane which is another factor that keeps most from running one. The common action in this country is for cheap cheap and more cheap, so Norinco is the norm not Hammerli.
TDC[/QUOTE]

Not Olympic shooting; IPSC. Most common firearms I deal with are 2001 variants, 1911 variants, CZ variants including Tanfoglio, Glocks, M&P's, a few Sig's and the occasional Berretta. Probably a few other Duty-type guns in there but I'm still half asleep.
I am currently working with someone who has been having the exact problem I've described. That is; she has been unable to reach the trigger on her chosen firearm and thus, could not bring the fundamental skills to the table. This problem has been corrected now and she is now hitting targets she never dreamed of hitting before.

Every training session we group in and group out. We also shoot groups during the session when necessary. Fundamentals are the foundation I base all my training on. Always have.
 
Fair enough. I was responding to the context of your written word.
For the record, we don't disagree on fundamentals. Theses are the primary things I teach and always have.
With regards to other pistols, what are you referring to? There are very few here who compete at the olympic level and even fewer vendors who offer Olympic level guns. The cost of those guns is insane which is another factor that keeps most from running one. The common action in this country is for cheap cheap and more cheap, so Norinco is the norm not Hammerli.
TDC[/QUOTE]

Not Olympic shooting; IPSC. Most common firearms I deal with are 2001 variants, 1911 variants, CZ variants including Tanfoglio, Glocks, M&P's, a few Sig's and the occasional Berretta. Probably a few other Duty-type guns in there but I'm still half asleep.
I am currently working with someone who has been having the exact problem I've described. That is; she has been unable to reach the trigger on her chosen firearm and thus, could not bring the fundamental skills to the table. This problem has been corrected now and she is now hitting targets she never dreamed of hitting before.

Every training session we group in and group out. We also shoot groups during the session when necessary. Fundamentals are the foundation I base all my training on. Always have.[/QUOTE]

For starters there's nothing practical about most the guns,gear, or stages in IPSC but I digress as that isn't the topic of discussion. As you say most of the guns you encounter in IPSC are service guns or based on a service gun(1911's mostly). Which is why I asked about what "other" guns you were referring to. My next question in regards to your student is whether or not she had ever held her chosen firearm prior to purchase? One would think that not being able to reach the trigger(in a comfortable or normal fashion) would be immediately apparent upon first handling it.

TDC
 
For starters there's nothing practical about most the guns,gear, or stages in IPSC but I digress as that isn't the topic of discussion. As you say most of the guns you encounter in IPSC are service guns or based on a service gun(1911's mostly). Which is why I asked about what "other" guns you were referring to. My next question in regards to your student is whether or not she had ever held her chosen firearm prior to purchase? One would think that not being able to reach the trigger(in a comfortable or normal fashion) would be immediately apparent upon first handling it.

TDC
Probably not. But then she wouldn't have known what she didn't know and probably followed someone else's advice.
Practical isn't a concern for me. IPSC is a sport and I simply choose the best gun for the performance I expect. I have no problem shooting service guns and at some point I will probably purchase one. But I am not training for combat so I let intended function define the form for me.
 
Probably not. But then she wouldn't have known what she didn't know and probably followed someone else's advice.
Practical isn't a concern for me. IPSC is a sport and I simply choose the best gun for the performance I expect. I have no problem shooting service guns and at some point I will probably purchase one. But I am not training for combat so I let intended function define the form for me.

And there it is. A completely uninformed purchase based on someone else's opinion without any thought or fact involved. I'm not knocking anyone here, just pointing out what ends up happening to a lot of new shooters. They buy something based on nostalgia, opinion, popularity, or any other illogical reason. Hit the range with it, can't hit anything with it, get pissed off, blame the gun, then bolt on some aftermarket crap in hopes it will improve their performance. When that doesn't work they proclaim said gun is inaccurate, sell it, and start again with a different make/model. Now where in this cycle does anyone ever stop to evaluate their skill level or really investigate why or what was causing the poor performance. Fundamentals are often foreign concepts, and so they should be. You don't know what you don't know..

TDC
 
And there it is. A completely uninformed purchase based on someone else's opinion without any thought or fact involved. I'm not knocking anyone here, just pointing out what ends up happening to a lot of new shooters. They buy something based on nostalgia, opinion, popularity, or any other illogical reason. Hit the range with it, can't hit anything with it, get pissed off, blame the gun, then bolt on some aftermarket crap in hopes it will improve their performance. When that doesn't work they proclaim said gun is inaccurate, sell it, and start again with a different make/model. Now where in this cycle does anyone ever stop to evaluate their skill level or really investigate why or what was causing the poor performance. Fundamentals are often foreign concepts, and so they should be. You don't know what you don't know..

TDC

Ok, but evaluate based on what data? Most of the shooting sports operate in a vacuum of quality information so where do they source it and how to they recognize it when they see it? When they ask questions they often get incorrect answers and advice from people who should but don't necessarily know better...they are only handing down "factoids" that they themselves have been told. So trusting in the voice of experience they base their purchase decisions on the information presented because what else can they do. The internet? Let's face it; that's just a big disorganized morass of infocrap, some of it good and a lot of it bad and quite a bit of it just pure sewage. But how would a neophyte know the difference? It's like trying to learn a martial art by reading books and watching videos. Not going to happen. Eventually, frustration sets in and they just give up and quit. It's too hard, too confusing, too expensive. I see this happen over and over again and I'm trying to prevent that.

Learning the fundamentals of pistol shooting is focus #1, but having correct equipment is also important. Call it fit; call it ergonomics, call it feel-onomics....whatever sounds right, but equipment should never impede the learning. And I don't personally care what gun anyone chooses since I don't get paid to endorse anything. So long as it works for the individual, I'm happy.

In any case, she's doing much better and we can now focus on the process of shooting rather than stupid hardware issues.
 
Somewhat relevant to this discussion, this is what Vogel says on ergonomics. While Vogel is in a league of his own, I think the take-away here is that at some level of achievement, fit becomes nearly as important or as important as fundamentals.

Since the beginning of 2006 I have shot Glock pistols exclusively in competition. Prior to this I had shot 1911 style pistols (STI) for three solid years. My number one reason for preferring the Glock is the grip I am able to get on the pistol. Because of the grip angle, ergonomics and low bore axis of the pistol I can get a much higher and more secure grip with both hands. This in effect translates into a shooting platform that is more effective in controlling recoil.
 
Somewhat relevant to this discussion, this is what Vogel says on ergonomics. While Vogel is in a league of his own, I think the take-away here is that at some level of achievement, fit becomes nearly as important or as important as fundamentals.

I agree Mr. Onagoth. For several years, I was into competitive cycling. I didn't race but did participate in longer distance rides at high speed. Of course I had ridden a bike of some sort since I was five or so. At 13 I could ride my old CCM just about anywhere I wanted to go. But this was different and my main "road bike" was a hand made Italian job that came in at about $4k and that was 25 years ago. Everything on that class of bike is measured in very small increments and fitted to the rider. When I straddled the bike, my hands fell exactly where they needed to be, my feet hit the pedals perfectly with my knees at just the right angles and so on.

I had a personal coach who was a wizard on the bike. He taught me the fundamentals and then some. My daily ride when I was training was 90k and at age 48 I completed my first "century" which is 100 miles non stop at moderate speed. This is about equivalent to running a marathon. I was not in any way exceptional but I assure you that no one attempted that sort of thing without a properly fitted ride or he paid the price. The point is that you couldn't exercise fundamentally good form and get good results on a poorly fitted machine regardless of its cost.

Endurance cycling is all about minimizing energy loss and controlling PAIN! To that end, riders use good form and a machine that suits the job. Otherwise your butt starts to resemble a Big Mac and you end up sitting beside the road waiting for the meat wagon. It's not a "one or the other" argument but rather a combination and not necessarily in equal proportions.
 
Somewhat relevant to this discussion, this is what Vogel says on ergonomics. While Vogel is in a league of his own, I think the take-away here is that at some level of achievement, fit becomes nearly as important or as important as fundamentals.


Read that quote again, the design allows for better RECOIL CONTROL. Nowhere did he say it felt better, fit my hand better or any similar BS. Low bore axis is a design feature that aids ALL who run the gun, not a specific hand size or shape. What's even more interesting is that Mr. Vogel who is an accomplished shooter indicates the grip angle and design of Glocks as a positive. Yet most(who have never trained and haven't a clue about the fundamentals) cry wolf that the grip angle and design is garbage.

Ok, but evaluate based on what data? Most of the shooting sports operate in a vacuum of quality information so where do they source it and how to they recognize it when they see it? When they ask questions they often get incorrect answers and advice from people who should but don't necessarily know better...they are only handing down "factoids" that they themselves have been told. So trusting in the voice of experience they base their purchase decisions on the information presented because what else can they do. The internet? Let's face it; that's just a big disorganized morass of infocrap, some of it good and a lot of it bad and quite a bit of it just pure sewage. But how would a neophyte know the difference? It's like trying to learn a martial art by reading books and watching videos. Not going to happen. Eventually, frustration sets in and they just give up and quit. It's too hard, too confusing, too expensive. I see this happen over and over again and I'm trying to prevent that.

Learning the fundamentals of pistol shooting is focus #1, but having correct equipment is also important. Call it fit; call it ergonomics, call it feel-onomics....whatever sounds right, but equipment should never impede the learning. And I don't personally care what gun anyone chooses since I don't get paid to endorse anything. So long as it works for the individual, I'm happy.

In any case, she's doing much better and we can now focus on the process of shooting rather than stupid hardware issues.

I apologize for the late response, nonetheless here it is.

I agree that the often ignorant misinformed "data" passed on by "experienced" shooters to new shooters is a flawed method. Same goes for a fair amount online. You said it, and I agree, trying to learn a martial art(and shooting is a martial art at its core) from videos and books is pointless. To that point you still see an endless number of people buying Magpul videos and others in an attempt to "self teach" marksmanship. Are videos and books completely useless? No, they are a great vehicle to get you started, started thinking that is.

The information a new shooter needs does not have to come from any one(or more) individual. The information is an answer or possible answer(s) to questions they themselves must ask. These questions must be relevant to the end goal, the desired result of said firearm. What does that mean? The first question any new shooter needs to ask of THEMSELVES is this: WHAT DO I WANT TO DO/ACHIEVE WITH SAID FIREARM? After you've decided what your goal(s) is then you can look at more practical and important factors, like design, calibre, competition"legal", size, price, finish, operating style etc etc. From a logical standpoint, if a new shooter simply takes what the CFSC/CRFSC course teaches about operating systems and applies that to the first question, the answer is much easier than for the clueless with zero firearms knowledge.

Without ever handling a handgun for example, you can extrapolate the following facts with minimal research and use of the firearms course material. All steel guns are heavier than alloy or polymer guns of similar size and calibre. DA/SA guns have two distinct trigger pulls and often employ a decocker. .40 and .45 will have more recoil than 9mm. With a little more intelligent thought one can eliminate designs that are not ergonomic or difficult to operate. Your end goal(question one above) will quickly eliminate the options, the design of others will eliminate themselves. From there you can apply some not so common sense, for example: If you can't reach the trigger with a proper grip on a DA/SA gun due to short fingers, then a DA/SA gun or that specific make/model is a no go. That isn't a "fit" issue, that's a fundamentals issue. If you cant reach a slide mounted safety/decocker without breaking your firing grip, then that make/model is no good, again that's a fundamentals issue not a "fit" issue. If you're concerned about forgetting to activate a manual safety or decocker or want the simplest operation possible, then a DA/SA gun as well as SA guns are not for you. Same goes for DA/SA guns in general, they require you to master two separate trigger pulls. If you're new to shooting, I suggest you not run a DA/SA gun. IMO, DA/SA guns are a dead design..

Aside from the above, one simply needs to compare two or more guns side by side. What does one offer over the other? What does one fail to offer over the other? Evaluate the lists generated and decide what's most important. A clear winner will emerge based on your criteria.

TDC
 
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Read that quote again, the design allows for better RECOIL CONTROL. Nowhere did he say it felt better, fit my hand better or any similar BS. Low bore axis is a design feature that aids ALL who run the gun, not a specific hand size or shape. What's even more interesting is that Mr. Vogel who is an accomplished shooter indicates the grip angle and design of Glocks as a positive. Yet most(who have never trained and haven't a clue about the fundamentals) cry wolf that the grip angle and design is garbage.

I envision ergonomics and fit as being similar....but this is just semantics at this point.

The grip angle is the one reason I have shot glocks for so long. I find it very easy to point and shoot.
 
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