anyone use the round ball/24 gauge plastic shell in their snider?

[Rickyy101]

recently picked up a mark II snider and would like to get her going

don't think i'll be picking up a press anytime soon as i'm still at home and space would be an issue, so the 24 gauge plastic shell/roundball seems like a good idea

can someone run me through the process? is it simply trim the shell down to 2", place some powder (is it 1f or 2f?) and put the ball on top? are any wads or lubing required? and what size round ball?


thanks!!

 

[Andy]

I've done this, but it was a few years ago. I used the Lee 0.600" Round Ball, but in a brass case. As for case length, I just trimmed it back until it chambered. You'd want it over a shotgun cup.

Tried a "Sabot" as well. It's posted here: http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/topic/1101/Using-Sabots-in-the-Snider-UPDATE Pretty "heretical" on that forum. The pics went down with my ISP, and I'm still in the process of getting them back up.

 

[dakotamar]

I think you will find the 24Ga shells will not fit in your chamber as they will need to be sized down. that is why everyone is doing the redneck 28Ga way, which is dangerous if you read other posts on this. I have done the 28Ga way, but you have to know that there is the chance of blowback in the chamber. I used a 575 ball 2f powder and corn meal to fill the void. do this at your own risk. I have since bought 24Ga brass shells and re-sized them.


let me know if you can put a 24Ga shell in your chamber.

 

[antiqueguy]

I think you will find the 24Ga shells will not fit in your chamber as they will need to be sized down. that is why everyone is doing the redneck 28Ga way, which is dangerous if you read other posts on this. I have done the 28Ga way, but you have to know that there is the chance of blowback in the chamber. I used a 575 ball 2f powder and corn meal to fill the void. do this at your own risk. I have since bought 24Ga brass shells and re-sized them.


let me know if you can put a 24Ga shell in your chamber.

24ga work well in the sinder both brass and plastic

 

[tokguy]

Smellie is sure to chime in ( and listen to him, he's got obscure tomes on the Snider as well as lots of knowledge. ) with load advice.
He's helped me out with a original loading trick that involves a cardboard tube to occupy case volume and it works well.
With respect; please don't chime in with the void / air warning, that does not apply here.
It's neat

 

[antiqueguy]

I've done this, but it was a few years ago. I used the Lee 0.600" Round Ball, but in a brass case. As for case length, I just trimmed it back until it chambered. You'd want it over a shotgun cup.

Tried a "Sabot" as well. It's posted here: http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/topic/1101/Using-Sabots-in-the-Snider-UPDATE Pretty "heretical" on that forum. The pics went down with my ISP, and I'm still in the process of getting them back up.

id want to stay away from plastic wading that's for shotshells using smokeless powder. what I did with my cadet carbine I used 2f powder(charge can be what ever with a round ball) a wool felt wad and then a .600" pure lead round ball then I poured a little bit of of bp lube on top of the ball. that was when I did not have brass I now have a mix of new made solid head brass and old kynoch and dominion

 

[triggerman42]

It depends on your gun , and your gun's chamber. I cut down some magtech 24 gauge brass to 1+ 7/8 inches and tryed chambering a couple of empty cases like that and it was a no-go. They wouldn't even go in half way ! They needed to be sized.
Although I haven't tryed a plastic hull yet , I would assume similar results, if the case diameters are identical.
70 grains of Goex Fg , a couple of 1/8" card wads , a .600 round ball , topped off with a beeswax mix lube works well in my rifle.
I've tryed both .590 and .600 size balls , and the .600 balls gave me a much tighter group.
I'm new to this as well , but have recieved loads of info and help through this CGN sight.
What a great place to learn from , and meet fellow shooting enthusiasts.

 

[tactical870]

I use brass as well as 24ga Fiocci plastic hulls trimmed to length. You can order 24 guage card wads from track of the wolf. I run 60gr FFG with a thick cardboard wad, then a 590 round ball held in place by a thick beeswax lube. Works great, cheap and accurate.

 

[QM 8687]

Jamison brass is out there, new in 577. But even it fits good in some Sniders, and needs persuasion in others. I think all ammo for these old rifles might need to be tailor made-unsure still learning.

 

[antiqueguy]

Jamison brass is out there, new in 577. But even it fits good in some Sniders, and needs persuasion in others. I think all ammo for these old rifles might need to be tailor made-unsure still learning.

Jamison went out of business a while back they are back under a new name and still make .577 snider but you are looking at about $5 each if not more. yes every gun has its own likes in a load most are going to shoot better with a .585" to .600" bullet a lot of guys are using .590" and .595" conical bullets of different lengths/weights depending on the rifles twist rate

 

[smellie]

Tinman204 has been shooting his Mark II** every day for about a week now, using 70 grains of Goex FFg and a .570" round ball with a 2x2 patch which has axle-grease rubbed into it; it forms almost a sabot for the Ball. He is using 24-bor Cheddite casings which I got from Will Bilozir. He is at bilozir.net and he hits most of the gun shows. Good guy to know about.

Tinman is getting better results at 100 yards than I am getting with Minie balls.

Original ammo for these was the BOXER casing, built-up of rolled brass foil stuck into an iron cup, stuck into another iron cup, held in place by a rolled-paper wad in the base, the whole mess held together to the iron rim (a washer) by the Primer Cup. These things expanded unmercifully when fired, but they actually reloaded them!

The Army went through 9 Marks of Snider ammo in just 4 years!

When the DRAWN-BRASS casing made its appearance, there was a LOT of internal space available because the new casings were made to fit the Chambers fairly tightly. To avoid problems with filling the case up with too many wads, the Kynoch factory devised an INNER WAD which goes from the base of the casing, up just to where that hint of a Neck starts. This wad is tubular, made of rolled paper, shellacked to keep it from lighting itself on fire, and it is .030" thick. They are easy to make and they avoid a lot of problems. If I ever get this digital whatchamacallit figured out, I'll post pictures.

DO NOT try using 28-gauge casings in a Snider. A friend tried this and it tried t go FULL-AUTO on him, which is a pretty good trick for an 1860s single-shot: blew the Breech-block OPEN, big blast of flame and gas, casing EJECTED with some force. Cost him his new $420 glasses, but at least he had them on, so it did not cost him his eyes.

If your plastic 24-bore cases don't want to chamber after you have chopped them to 2 inches, make up a necking die. You can use metal for this OR you can even get away with hardwood if you polish it well on the inside. Grease your sizing die, then hold your casings, base up, with the mouths into a pot of water at a rolling boil. Bring a case out and stuff it into the die; that should put a taper on the forward part and then it should chamber okay. Holds that .570 patched ball VERY well, also. You can do 4 or 5 a minute if th die is open at the top; use a piece of dowel to knock the converted case out, stuff in th next.

I don't like the idea of .600 or .620 round balls in a Snider, even if they are VERY soft lead. That is a LOT of sizing-down, very suddenly, for a 150-year-old iron barrel to withstand.

Hope this helps.

 

[Andy]

I don't like the idea of .600 or .620 round balls in a Snider, even if they are VERY soft lead. That is a LOT of sizing-down, very suddenly, for a 150-year-old iron barrel to withstand.

In fact it's very little sizing down. Since it's a sphere, and not a cylinder, every 0.010" it's sized down (for the first 10-20 thou) only affects about 0.050" of the horizontal surface of the sphere (and not all equally), unlike the surface of a cylinder where easily 5-10 times that of its surface is sized down. So it's a lot of sizing (e.g. 10 thou - 0.600" down to 0.590"), but only over a very small surface.

Wish I had time to do a drawing and provide exact math...........

P.S. I too don't recommend 0.620" RB's, because of its diameter, but also because you have to use a considerably shorter cartridge length to allow it to chamber.

 

[antiqueguy]

Tinman is getting better results at 100 yards than I am getting with Minie balls.

DO NOT try using 28-gauge casings in a Snider. A friend tried this and it tried t go FULL-AUTO on him, which is a pretty good trick for an 1860s single-shot: blew the Breech-block OPEN, big blast of flame and gas, casing EJECTED with some force. Cost him his new $420 glasses, but at least he had them on, so it did not cost him his eyes.

I don't like the idea of .600 or .620 round balls in a Snider, even if they are VERY soft lead. That is a LOT of sizing-down, very suddenly, for a 150-year-old iron barrel to withstand.

Hope this helps.

most have never had good results with minie balls. the 28ga thing is very real happened to me too. .600 round balls are common practice .620 I think a very bad idea anyone using a .570 round ball must have a very good bore almost pristine you have to remember the mk1 and mk2 and all variations of them had been converted from p1853 enfield's using the barrel and lock the bores on a lot of them are nowhere near .577 in the grooves and the rifling is shallow meant to be loaded from the muzzle also 3 groove barrels witch are on most are 1 in 78" twist while 5 groove barrels are 1 in 48 witch is about right for a long conical like a minie ball

 

[smellie]

The Brits sold nearly a MILLION Pattern 1853 rifled-muskets to the North AND the South during the Civil War. The ones they KEPT were the very-latest Pattern 1858 rifles, on which the bores were much closer to spec, thanks to Sir Joseph Whitworth and his program of tightening-up tolerances and using precision gauges.

Barrel dates on most early Sniders would suggest that they were made from P.1858 rifles.

The new Pattern indicated nothing more than the tightened tolerances. To make picking the rifles out from a rack easier, they changed the front band.

When he got the rifle, Tinman's bore was atrocious, believe me. He tried electrolysis as a final resort..... and the bore came up clean and smooth and shiny, only a few pits: eminently shootable...... as he is proving. If you drive by Starbuck and see the clouds, don't worry: it's not a storm coming. Just powder-smoke!

 

[Tinman204]

Smellie, thanks fir the praise but the old snider is doing all of the work!!

Shot this group offhand 2 hours ago. (100 yards)

As the bore fouled more the group opened up and started to go left. I tried bore butter today and actually I found the results were less accuracy and similar fouling.

My first loads were 24g plastic shot hulls cut back to 1 7/8", 70 grains of FFG GOEX powder. I patched .58 cal round balls (.570$ with 54 cal patches lightly lubed with grease. Accuracy was 6" groups at 100 yards.

just for a laugh the bore once looked like this

 

[antiqueguy]

The Brits sold nearly a MILLION Pattern 1853 rifled-muskets to the North AND the South during the Civil War. The ones they KEPT were the very-latest Pattern 1858 rifles, on which the bores were much closer to spec, thanks to Sir Joseph Whitworth and his program of tightening-up tolerances and using precision gauges.

Barrel dates on most early Sniders would suggest that they were made from P.1858 rifles.

The new Pattern indicated nothing more than the tightened tolerances. To make picking the rifles out from a rack easier, they changed the front band.

When he got the rifle, Tinman's bore was atrocious, believe me. He tried electrolysis as a final resort..... and the bore came up clean and smooth and shiny, only a few pits: eminently shootable...... as he is proving. If you drive by Starbuck and see the clouds, don't worry: it's not a storm coming. Just powder-smoke!

im not doubting it im saying most get better results with .585" to .600" round balls with the .590" to .600" being most common

 

[antiqueguy]

Smellie, thanks fir the praise but the old snider is doing all of the work!!

Shot this group offhand 2 hours ago. (100 yards)

As the bore fouled more the group opened up and started to go left. I tried bore butter today and actually I found the results were less accuracy and similar fouling.

My first loads were 24g plastic shot hulls cut back to 1 7/8", 70 grains of FFG GOEX powder. I patched .58 cal round balls (.570$ with 54 cal patches lightly lubed with grease. Accuracy was 6" groups at 100 yards.

just for a laugh the bore once looked like this

'
how are you patching them from that group id say try some .585" and .590" round balls it mite tighten up a bit

 

[Tinman204]

'
how are you patching them from that group id say try some .585" and .590" round balls it mite tighten up a bit

I'm going to have to do some more testing. I'm patching them up to about .590 right now with i believe (have to check) .010 54 cal patches. the .570 ball will drop right down the bore without the patch.

My accuracy this weekend was way better then the group I just posted. But like I mentioned earlier I tried different lube and more lube today and the results were the group above. I hope eventually to shoot .590 round balls out of this rifle but the bore has some good pitting in the last 12". The patched .570 balls seem to be pretty accurate with zero leading.

This gun was a "wallhanger" and I'm just glad that I got it shooting again.

Might I add that I just finished cleaning the bore and the pits seem to be getting better and better with every use.

 

[antiqueguy]

I'm going to have to do some more testing. I'm patching them up to about .590 right now with i believe (have to check) .010 54 cal patches. the .570 ball will drop right down the bore without the patch.

My accuracy this weekend was way better then the group I just posted. But like I mentioned earlier I tried different lube and more lube today and the results were the group above. I hope eventually to shoot .590 round balls out of this rifle but the bore has some good pitting in the last 12". The patched .570 balls seem to be pretty accurate with zero leading.

This gun was a "wallhanger" and I'm just glad that I got it shooting again.

Might I add that I just finished cleaning the bore and the pits seem to be getting better and better with every use.

heat and lube help bring out all the gunk from the steel I found this out after cleaning my latest mk4 martini from the Nepal cache that grease they use has just sunk into the pours of the metal

 

[Tinman204]

heat and lube help bring out all the gunk from the steel I found this out after cleaning my latest mk4 martini from the Nepal cache that grease they use has just sunk into the pours of the metal

I have to agree with you there. My snider probably wasn't shot for the last 100 years or so by the look of the bore. The first time I fired it was on the weekend. It grouped quite well and held it's accuracy for about 15-20 rounds. But now that I've shot it several times it seems that all of the crap is coming out with every heating of the barrel.